I want to talk about tempering

[Eisenhower]

Incarnate summonings pose another little piece of weirdness: not!Zenos implies that (an Echo-less, as far as we know) summoner that brings a primal literally into themselves will be 'tempered', and yet Yotsuyu acts enough like herself in her dying hours. Then again, the other cases we've seen of this, two of them died shortly after forcefully unsummoning the primal (Thordan, Yotsuyu) and Ysayle had an Echo/Blessing of Light bonus as well (so, by how -those- work, Ysayle wouldn't have been tempered anyways)

If you have a source for the "summoner that brings a primal literally into themselves will be 'tempered'" claim, I'd love to investigate for myself.

I'm ashamed to say that I didn't factor in Ysayle, Thordan, and Yotsuyu when considering the tempering process and effect. My instinctive reaction to it is that process of possession by a primal entity would change the target's aetheric signature in a temporary and non-destructive way. Or perhaps the changes to the host is different than those affected by a primal's tempering aura. Finally, it may be the case that the primal form is a sort of overlay on top of the host's form, like the shell of an egg and where the tempering effect radiates outwards only. There has to be some sort of control though. We know from geography (among other things) that oversaturation of aether can lead to permanent physical changes and it would be remiss to think that living beings intersected with primal aether would be exempt "in the wild", so to speak.

By whatever practical method, once the possession can no longer be maintained, the target's original signature could "bounce back".

I honestly don't recall the details surrounding Ysayle clearly enough, so I'm uncertain the nature of her Echo/blessing and whether or not she was in regular contact with crystal mom. Differences in tempering may very well stem from the summoning method used. To the best of my knowledge, all three possession-type summonings originated from Ascian plans - the summoners were either taught or provided with materials by Ascians. Thus the possession-type primals could be furnished with a different set of attributes and abilities based on the summoning method.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Don't forget Zenos. In his case, he trapped a primal summoned by someone else, and then possessed that primal, while retaining control over his own mind. Granted, the feat was made possible by an artificial Echo, but it's the same power nonetheless.

The Resonance has clearly introduced a significant kink to all existing theories about the Echo and summoning.

[Dualblade]

Yotsuyu so far is the only person to "become" a Primal that doesn't have the Echo, real or artificial. That she seems to still have complete control of herself is what makes it so strange. That said it doesn't seem like merely summoning the Primal does an immediate tempering, this does apparently happen with the Sylphs but then Ga Bu summoned Titan (without meaning too mind) and there is some implication that he isn't temempered, just...well, really not in the best place mentally.

I have my own theories for some of this myself, just gonna spoiler box incase I rambal on.

So for the Sylphs I think the Ascians taught them a slightly different varient of the summoning process that would ensure whoever uses it is auto-tempered. We know Ramuh only does it if the one in question wants it and this would be a good way for the Ascians to get the ball rolling. It could also be explained that they don't do this for all the beast tribes by saying it takes more aether and/or faith for the ritual that auto-tempers, most of other beast tribes don't quite need that for the Ascians plans to work.

As for tempering and wrapping around back to Yotsuyu, we know that its the primal forcing their aether, and thus will, onto the victims...but what if the victim actually has the stronger will? We've seen with Bahamut and Phoenix thats its possible for a primal to temper another, and we know from quite a few primals that have tried to temper the WoL that Hydaelyn prevents it and presumbably so does Zodiark for the Ascians. But those two are truly Gods from everything we know, above all the Primals. They would have greater will than any of them could.

But then comes the artifical Echo...is it truly the Echo though, that does it? Or was Zenos's will actually greater than Shinryu's? Might Fordola's will be greater than Lakshmi? Would Yotsuyu, one with neither a natural or artifical Echo, have a greater will than a primal powered by the "faith" of one person? It matters not for Elidibus's goals as she died before he could even know if she kept her will unlike what he told Asahi, but its possible that much like how mortals can defeat the primals, a mortal's will could triumph the primal's on and prevent the tempering, even reversing it.

And then wrapping around back to the Ascians being the ones to teach the tribes and others how to summon, we know from the SMN storyline that we keep learning more and more about it. Is it possible that there is a way, perhaps before Ascian involment, to summon a being that WON'T try and brainwash people? That might even truly be that being, rather than one prone to malice, hate, and destruction? One that may even draw upon much less aether to the point it isn't a danger to Hydaelyn? Or am I just imagining of ways for SE to add in big time summoning for the good of Hydaelyn rather than the bad or at best nuetral. 4 in the morning rambal over.

[Melichoir]

Ive always viewed Tempering as a crude methodology primals use to ensure theyre own existance. They literally enslave the soul of the tempered to remain faithful and in worship of them. The reason that we see it inconsistently among primals depends on the necessity of doing it. For example, some primals (like that of Levi) resort to it in such extreme ways that it not only warps the soul, but also the body. But it is not always a necessity, as Shiva and Thordan did not need to temper simply because the hopes and prayers for them was given willingly.

Because of this, and this is just a personal theory, I think primals are not all the same. That there are different 'tiers' of primals. The more crude and base a primal is, the more likely theyre going to use tempering to ensure they got a steady supply of worshipers. While more advanced Primals would not inherently require this. It could also explain why someone who becomes or embodies a primal (Ysael as Shiva) doesnt become tempered themselves, or why some primals seem a lot more keenly aware of things and rational, rather than a destructive hellbent force of nature (Like that of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan).

Edit For clarity: Primals need some form of worship and ideology to exist. When the ideology is crude, half formed, or fleeting, they will temper people into devotees to keep them going. Ifrit, titan, Garuda, are all pretty much vengeful forces brought about by those seeking revenge and to harm. Where as Shiva, Thordan, and Even Tsukuyomi were more sentient in nature, less primalistic. They had more complex motivations from those that summoned /became them. We get some proof of this from Tsukuyomi, as Yotsuyu drops her primal form mid battle as her convicitions wane briefly. By wallowing in her despair, she repowers and reaffirms her convictions, becoming more powerful as a result.

More important, when an individual Embodies a Primal, their wills and motivations play out more complexly than a other Primals. Ifrit is just a manifestation of a groups hatred, Shiva is a person or peoples manifestation of their ideals and goals. Its not just "Screw those guys", theres more to it. We can see why Shinryu was a primalistic force when summoned, but under Zenos was more 'conscious'. Its why Primals like Sophia, Bismarck, etc, are more primalistic and one dimensional in nature, But Shiva, Thordan, Odin (and Alexander to some extent) are more complicated.

[Cilia]

When it comes to Incarnate Summoning and Tempering:

Ysayle and Zenos get free passes since they had the Echo (even if Zenos' was artificial, the Echo is the Echo).

For non-Echo users, it implicitly tempers them to themselves, or at least whatever strong emotion drove their summoner to the summoning. Thordan is powered by his faith in the righteousness of his cause, and loses his primal form shortly before despairing at how his power could be overcome. Tsukuyomi is powered by, as Yotsuyu says herself, her own spite and suffering; she doesn't have enough before the add phase to be a proper challenge, and loses her form during it.

Another oddity is Ga Bu, the kobold child who unwittingly summoned Titan in grief at his parents' deaths. While this isn't Incarnate Summoning, it is quite the unique case in that like Incarnate Summoning it required only one summoner and was very different from a group-summoned primal. The Titan summoned is little more than a manifestation of Ga Bu's rage and sorrow; as a result while Ga Bu may or may not have been tempered by the summoning, he displays none of the fanatical behavior of your typical tempered follower and instead remains in near-catatonic grief.

Elidibus (as Zenos) said that Incarnate Summoning without the Echo makes one into "a slave to whim and desire" (presumably the desires that called the primal). That's pretty cut and dry to me.

This makes the phantom Gosetsu's appearance during the Tsukuyomi fight very impactful...

[LineageRazor]

Another oddity is Ga Bu, the kobold child who unwittingly summoned Titan in grief at his parents' deaths. While this isn't Incarnate Summoning, it is quite the unique case in that like Incarnate Summoning it required only one summoner and was very different from a group-summoned primal. The Titan summoned is little more than a manifestation of Ga Bu's rage and sorrow; as a result while Ga Bu may or may not have been tempered by the summoning, he displays none of the fanatical behavior of your typical tempered follower and instead remains in near-catatonic grief.[/hb]

One possible explanation to the Ga Bu thing... While Titan was clearly influenced by Ga Bu's emotional state, all the trappings for the Summoning had already been prepared by someone else, so it might not be unfair to say that it wasn't Ga Bu himself performing the summoning, even if he triggered it. Additionally, we were right there with Ga Bu: it was demonstrated in the summoning of Lakshmi at the summit that the Warrior of Light can directly shield people without the Echo from becoming Tempered (the whole intercept-the-temper-balls minigame). While we weren't explicitly shown doing so, perhaps we were able to prevent Ga Bu from becoming tempered.

The Ga Bu thing is something that bugged me for a while, and while I do find the reasoning to be a bit shaky, that's what I came up with to potentially explain it.

Another possibility is that Ga Bu WAS tempered - but he was so traumatized by the whole ordeal that he's not ready to start his new life of zealotry...

[Okamimaru]

Do primals know that the aether they need to exist is not unlimited? Can a primal exist on its own if it drains the world? Do they know they would eventually run out of energy and cease to exist or is there and amount of aether that can make their manifestation permanent... or do they just ignore the implications of their aether consumption because it doesn't mesh with their goals? With no aether and nobody left to feed them belief do they just cease to exist?

[Dualblade]

Do primals know that the aether they need to exist is not unlimited? Can a primal exist on its own if it drains the world? Do they know they would eventually run out of energy and cease to exist or is there and amount of aether that can make their manifestation permanent... or do they just ignore the implications of their aether consumption because it doesn't mesh with their goals? With no aether and nobody left to feed them belief do they just cease to exist?

Ramuh and Alexander certainly know, Ramuh was willing to let us kill him so long as we passed his test and Alexander engineered multiple stable time loops that ensured that he could never be easily summoned again. Other primals may or may not know but certain ones certainly wouldn't care. Ifrit and Garuda would for sure and Bismark we don't even know if that one is really all that intelligent.

EDIT INCOMING

Wait is this already li---oh right I always hit the like button for Anonymoose.

[Anonymoose]

Do primals know that the aether they need to exist is not unlimited?

Most do.

do they just ignore the implications of their aether consumption because it doesn't mesh with their goals?

They'll burn that bridge when they get to it.

Primals aren't truly gods, but by virtue of their summoners' intent believe that they are. When this is the case, they often believe that this entitles them and them alone to exist; they believe that no other god should be summoned and that it is sacrilege to give aether to another. Ifrit and Garuda both said so, Titan would have said something similar if 1.x had continued. Titan in fact knew that Eorzea would become a "continent of death" if too many gods were summoned.

Alexander is one of the most interesting, since it's status as a nigh-omniscient calculator overrode the biases of its summoners, causing it to objectively conclude that it should not exist and work to subvert itself by locking itself into a stable time loop.

That's part of the brilliance of the "Knowledge of the Paragons". The spell is calculatedly, deliberately flawed - nigh 100% guaranteed to cause damage to the planet and chaos to civilization eventually somehow by some means. To fully control a deiform and all the consequences of its existence is almost impossible. Plenty of people throughout history have seen this as a sign that they will be the one to utilize the Knowledge of the Paragons and get away with it. So far, they've all been wrong.

[Cilia]

Do primals know that the aether they need to exist is not unlimited? Can a primal exist on its own if it drains the world? Do they know they would eventually run out of energy and cease to exist or is there and amount of aether that can make their manifestation permanent... or do they just ignore the implications of their aether consumption because it doesn't mesh with their goals? With no aether and nobody left to feed them belief do they just cease to exist?

To an extent. It varies from primal to primal and probably depends on what their goals are. Ramuh, for instance, is as wise as the Sylphs imagined him to be - he is aware of the stress he puts on the environment, and as a consequence doesn't want to be summoned except in times of great danger and will allow himself to be banished back to the aetherial plane if his presence is unwarranted. (Like all primals he's still rather extreme in his mindset, but the point stands.) Bismarck, on the other hand, doesn't even appear to be sentient, so he's likely unconcerned with any of that. For your average primal (i.e. Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, etc.) they may be aware of the load they put on the environment, but consider fulfilling their summoned directive (for want of a better term) and tempering followers (as a means of self-preservation) more important.

A primal can't exist without consuming aether, so if one managed to drain the world dry... yeah, it would cease to exist. If all memory if it was scoured from the world, it would cease to exist as well; that's the point behind tempering. Even if you killed all of a given primal's tempered followers, that primal would still exist as long as someone remembered it and could, theoretically, be summoned by an untempered individual or group.

EDIT
Beat to the punch...