Increasing difficulty in casual content ≠ Savage

[kikix12]

If the general dungeon difficulty were to be raised, would those who desire such be willing to be more patient with other players and more accepting of the potential for mistakes and failure? It seems like you'd almost have to be, but then again I'm not sure it's safe to presume how others will act or react in an online game setting.

If it would be one or two dungeons randomly dropped into a roulette with easier ones...no. There's no way that the average good players would have patience. If the entire game before then caters to the unskilled players, there's just no way the average Joe or Jane would learn before getting into those harder dungeons and it'd be like throwing an unskilled player into savage. Just look at Shinryu when it hit. Suddenly there was a trial where you needed to pay some attention and it was a roadblock until the better/luckier players went past and begun overgearing it.
My first attempt at it was with a party where half of the players died to literally the first Tsunami, the one that is guaranteed after about 10 seconds into the run, every single time. And they died on third and fourth approach. Player that cannot avoid a mechanic like that absolutely should not reach lvl70.

If the dungeons would either be optional and not part of any roulette that have lower-difficulty dungeons or the mandatory dungeons would be more difficult from day one (aka all the way from Sastasha and up), then yes. People would be more patient because the unskilled players would be forced to learn the earlier ones growing more skilled step by step or never reach the ones higher up. So in any run, you would have players with the capacity to learn, and that's a lot. Especially since right now it's common for people to refuse to listen to advice after a wipe...

[KaivaC]

My own opinion of the playerbase aside, I would be patient. I rarely lose my composure for players in 4mans. That being said, that's why I prefer expert dungeons actually feeling like expert content. I like turning my attention towards something a bit challenging when my confidence for savage is gone.

[KaivaC]

On that note, let me counter another argument, I highly doubt that if one or two dungeons went into the optional expert roulette, that a higher difficulty in those dungeons will make players unsub. Not on the difficulty part at least.

[Remedi]

On that note, let me counter another argument, I highly doubt that if one or two dungeons went into the optional expert roulette, that a higher difficulty in those dungeons will make players unsub. Not on the difficulty part at least.

Oh you may never know, some ppl will unsub for literally everything and make sure everyone knows it /sigh

That said I think SE is more concerned about ppl dropping the hard dungeons in hope to get the faster one than eventual sub losses

[Colt47]

The indomitable problem with an aging MMORPG is the aging of it's player base. People graduate from college, find themselves at work 8 hours a day or more, drive for an hour and half a day going to and from their job or more, spend time cleaning and shopping, etc. Those old players no longer can keep up and do hard dungeon content because they're tired, their brains are melting into their skulls (at least mine feels that way when I finally get done for the day), and basically go wondering into content like Eureka falling asleep while waiting for NMs to spawn. My own glorious return to form was conquering Byakko extreme a few months back and getting my paladin weapon before entering a routine of tome farming for 360 gear. I don't even collect or bother with materia anymore because by the time I'm finished gearing up, the next patch comes around and I just have to pull everything out again.

[Hestzhyen]

The indomitable problem with an aging MMORPG is the aging of it's player base. People graduate from college, find themselves at work 8 hours a day or more, drive for an hour and half a day going to and from their job or more, spend time cleaning and shopping, etc. Those old players no longer can keep up and do hard dungeon content because they're tired, their brains are melting into their skulls (at least mine feels that way when I finally get done for the day), and basically go wondering into content like Eureka falling asleep while waiting for NMs to spawn. My own glorious return to form was conquering Byakko extreme a few months back and getting my paladin weapon before entering a routine of tome farming for 360 gear. I don't even collect or bother with materia anymore because by the time I'm finished gearing up, the next patch comes around and I just have to pull everything out again.

I myself went from a college student to a full-time professional with a demanding job while playing XIV and I agree with your statement in many ways. I simply don't have the time or willpower to beat my head against the wall for hours to learn the hardest content any more. When I get home I want to chill and do something that won't kill the whole party because I made one mistake. A few years ago I was on the bleeding edge of Coil/Savage; now I think I might get around to it eventually. I'm getting older and less responsive and can't devote as much of my energy to games as I used to.

THAT SAID, I would like to see the game challenge us a little more in DF. The mid-core content that the Alliance raids sit at are perfect for me in terms of challenge but those are also the only instances in the game that offer it. Even then, only Rabanastre, Dun Scaith, sometimes Mhach and occasionally WoD offer what I seek. I love Hashbrowns and Ozma in particular and hope to see more fights like that. Dungeons don't have to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator, but since have more of them than any other type of content in the game, I hope SE can make some mid-core dungeons that require thought instead of being pretty corridors full of trash to AoE punctuated by bosses that go out of their way not to wipe you.

When I go into Mentor Roulette, I will sit through even the worst and totally hopeless EX runs to help if the group is willing to try. I will not ask for challenges that I am not willing to help other players though. And honestly, I think SE sells the player base short by having so much faceroll content. The average Joe will learn what to do within a few failed attempts, and the XIV player base is one of the friendliest I've seen. Despite the bad apples and petulant players who will refuse to improve or teach others, I think we'd see a net benefit from SE holding our collective skills in higher esteem.

[KaivaC]

To back up Moro's statement, I wholeheartedly support more difficult dungeons because I feel that it would do some good. I'm sure you've seen my fflogs. A lot of folks on the forums have seen them. I'm one of the worst players on the game. Doesn't mean I don't support more difficult dungeons. In fact, I would love to have more of them so that I can get better and play on a higher level than where I'm sitting at right now.

I dunno why it's been such a bad thing to suggest tuning up the difficulty. There are more benefits than there are negatives to it.

[Remedi]

Probably it will do some good, though SE has been a bit inconsistent with nerfs, recently they've seemed to hold their grounds more (ozma, nidhoog and shinryu comes to mind) but since they've already nerfed something in the past in response to players backlash (though I'll concede that it was to mitigate players leaving if an harder dungeon appared, hence why we have expert roulette in the first place) is a looming shadow imho.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Even one case is problematic, we have the same problem with tanks here, in a vertical progression setting you want to get stronger and stronger, since that's the fantasy they are after.

We have it with more than just tanks, but tanks are a felony level example. While I agree that a single case is problematic it's a pretty nuanced issue. I wish I had a good solution for it, but I don't.

I can tell you (as a PLD main), it FEELs so much worse in this game than it does WoW. I really don't like secondaries in either game. I really don't like secondaries at all. I think the goal of secondaries could probably be better used as functions/themes inside class abilities in both MMOs.

Realistically, the hardest content in the game should be the 4-player content (if not the solo combat content,) but instead it's the 8-player Savage content. Perhaps SE should consider making savage content 4-player content, and make storyline content 8-player content.

Why should 4 player content be the hardest? Cite specific reasons/examples/insight please.

Do you have any examples of mechanics that would be interested/challenging for a tank or healer in a 4 player party?

Exactly what would change about like, Phantom Train or Chadarnook, if we made that a 4man? Absolutely nothing. You would need to scale the Prey damage down slightly because you wouldnt have offhealer shielding or healing after Prey for the next Rain but besides that, it's exactly the same, but with mechanics targeting 1/2 of the players. Lights target 1 instead of 2, and with the 1 tether. If tank is caught in a ghost, you wipe, because you failed the mechanic and you should wipe.

I cannot say the game has done a poor job teaching players to play the game, because that would imply that the game has even attempted to do so.

While I wholeheartedly agree on your last point, I'm not sure just translating Sigmascape savage to 4 man is as easy as you imply it is. Not to mention, the less people there are to make mistakes, the easier the content is as it dramatically cuts down learning time (all else equal) and thus shortens the life of the content.

I think a lot of things would need to change in the core combat system before we can make 4 man content both engaging and challenging. I think the limited way in which mechanics overlap is a core problem here.

O5S - 4 man would make that fight considerably easier (assuming incoming damage re-tuned for single healer). Think of how much more space you'd have for mechanics. The non-cheese strat would also be hilariously easy with just 4 people.

O6S - I suppose I can agree that not much would change here, but O6S isn't the most riveting experience as it stands now.

I'd be curious if you had any other good examples of how you could make engaging/challenging 4 man mechanics, within the existing design constraints, for tanks and healers specifically, but DPS if you have them too!).

All tanks in Stormblood have some way of self-sustain and some way of buying more time with a cooldown. While a PLD would clearly be in the best spot because Clemency and Hallowed can buy all kinds of time (I mean, I've flat out healed O8N for almost a minute alone as a PLD after both healers got knocked off at the same time and needed to recover), all the tanks have something to do that isn't "just keep DPSing until I die and blame the healer." They can buy time for a healer to get out from the ghosts, as it doesn't take that long to kill one. DPS can actually avoid stuff until the healer is out, and if you've got a RDM who realizes they have Vercure, you're fine anyway.

I don't know why you like to exaggerate, but there's a gap between "everything instagibs you and wipes the party" and "it's literally impossible to fail this boss if you are awake."

While it literally pains me to defend Riyah - I am inclined to agree (IN THIS SPECIFIC instance only).

I don't see how you can design good engaging/challenging 4 man content within the current design constraints with respect to tanks/healers.

Using your example - translated to a 4 man savage O5S, if you needed to use a CD to cover a mistake, then you don't have a CD you need later for a tankbuster. If you can survive without a CD, then the mechanic doesn't matter. If you can Clemency the boss auto's to survive while healer is trapped, how do you offset/survive raidwide damage then? Can't clemency everyone, and you could vercure some, but it won't be enough. What if your comp (which contains 4 out of 15 now, instead of 8 out of 15) doesn't have one of those? What if it doesn't have either?

While I would love to explore this avenue, I'm not sure how good it can be without some sweeping changes to the core combat system (which I'm all for). The result that I am afraid of would be an even more binary healing and tanking paradigm that would likely drive me to switch roles or quit.

I think what's being lost here is that the idea behind this post was to get 4mans to start pushing towards savage mechanics. Within the game system, you can introduce difficulty within doing savage stuff. Quite easily in fact. I'm saying this from a non raider perspective too. Again, within the game engine, the devs can easily make an entire dungeon nerf healing and tanking through persistent debuffs, just lower the damage that mobs do overall.

I would love to see a gimmick dungeon that is like ff9s Ipsen's Castle, in that lower ilvl makes it easier to actually get through the dungeon

Your idea to this in perpetuity, is to have persistent debuffs throughout an entire content form (so multiple dungeons, or whatever else 'savage' 4 man content ends up being by nerfing output and modifying incoming mob damage? That would probably feel more unintuitive and jarring than being synced down to Sastasha, not to mention is a pretty hamfisted implementation.

While I love FF9 and Ipsens castle, that type of gameplay would NOT translate well to an MMO at all.

Do you have some examples of what 4 man savage content could look like? Specific mechanics, etc.

[KisaiTenshi]

Why should 4 player content be the hardest? Cite specific reasons/examples/insight please.

Do you have any examples of mechanics that would be interested/challenging for a tank or healer in a 4 player party?

The more players there are, the greater chance of mistakes being made, and the more likeliness of "dead weight" so to speak. In a 4-player dungeon, you should not be able to "dead weight" anyone, but most of the 4-player content lets you lock someone out of the boss room, and still defeat the boss. So actual teamwork is required for a 4-player dungeon, and as we've seen in POTD, 4 healers or 4 tanks does not actually make the dungeon easier, it just creates a lack of defined roles, so you're more likely to fail by someone not doing their job. See "neither tank would switch out of tank stance" problems that content with two tanks has.

Realistically, the kind of "hard" mechanics you want to drop on a 4-player team are that which removes a player (eg fetters/gaol) from action if a major mechanic is ignored. eg fetter the tank, then the boss goes after the healer. Fetter the healer, tank can't free them, and the DPS has to free the healer. Fetter the DPS, the other DPS has to free them. If the tank or healer try to free a fettered DPS, then they neglect their roles, and create a failure situation. This is just one example of where the roles during a boss would need to be more rigidly enforced.

Why 4-player content is easy is because the healer's role is redundant for everyone, even the tank, by players having self-healing options and the auto-heal, as gear creep goes up. Unless Yoshi-P wants to redesign how HoT, self-healing and auto-healing works so that gear doesn't count in the calculation, this will always be the case. A tank should not be able to solo the boss while level-synced, yet that has been a thing since 2.0.