Dark Knight Changes

[addz3]

I'm posting this here and not in the tank forums just because I'd like non tank feedback and discussion.

So as the title says what changes to DRK do you think we'll get? I've seen a few forum entries hoping for damage migration and although this would be welcome I'm hoping that they make it more like Warrior than Paladin. I know the dps rotation provides an HP siphon effect but it could also benefit from a powerful CD self heal perhaps?

Since the purge of cross class skills DRK seems to be under equipped for actions, may be I'm doing it wrong but all I end up spamming is the siphon strike rotation. Point I'm making is that maybe it could benefit from some more CD's like holy spirit and spirits within or maybe an AOE ability.

The FFXI fanboy in me would like some spells as well like absorb stat spells or an spell/spike ability or even black magic but make them animations of an ability rather than cast due to cast time restrictions.

Thoughts?

[NewAgeDoom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR1T0k6CxWQ

It'll be basically that, but with Warrior instead of Monk, based on the general consensus among the forums.

I wouldn't mind DRK getting some love though, but I haven't played the other tanks enough to venture an opinion on what needs to be changed, being a newer player.

[Nihility]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR1T0k6CxWQ

It'll be basically that, but with Warrior instead of Monk, based on the general consensus among the forums.

I wouldn't mind DRK getting some love though, but I haven't played the other tanks enough to venture an opinion on what needs to be changed, being a newer player.

Basically...
1. compared to PLD and WAR managing resources as a DRK is way more tedious and DRK has skills that kind of feel redundant
2. The change from crossclass skills to role skills feels like DRK took a hit compared to other two
3. DRK being sourced from ffxi rune fencer made it a magic tank which makes it either great or crippled depending on how each boss is designed since the anti-magic GCD's equivalents are just anti-damage GCD's for the other tanks

overall though it's kind of hard to explain unless you have played all 3 enough to see.
like warrior you can basically play as a melee dps with no resource management problems at all, like overpower spamming is about the only thing you can do wrong.
and all your cooldowns and secondary resource are basically just "is storm's eye up?" let 'er rip

and PLD mp is used only on a very limited amount of things and secondary resource is also very much like warrior where you basically just using it as it comes in without needing much thought at all

DRK on the other hand if your really trying to get the most out of it, your constantly mashing dark arts between skills but you also need to constantly be watching your mp because you need to keep a reserve for defensive skills and need to make sure you have enough ready to dark arts carve and spit when it comes up.
and then you have to deal with blackest night which if you don't get the whole shield eaten it's basically a waste but sometimes even if you do just using dark arts on something else would have been more beneficial
and your secondary resource has to deal with delirium which is largely "am i in a situation where I can make more off of delirium than it costs? Or should i just do bloodspiller/quietus?"

It's just really really management busy compared to the other two which also is a ffxi rune fencer thing but ultimately your putting in a lot more effort for less reward.


What i'm mostly expecting to happen is making the DR GCDs more generic like other tanks and lessening the resource management load again

[Eloah]

Since the purge of cross class skills DRK seems to be under equipped for actions, may be I'm doing it wrong but all I end up spamming is the siphon strike rotation. Point I'm making is that maybe it could benefit from some more CD's like holy spirit and spirits within or maybe an AOE ability.

Not sure what you mean by "since the cross class purge they seem under equipped" they have access to the same skills they use to have, unless you mean the battle system revamp as a whole, in which case yes they "suck".

You are correct that all you are doing is spamming that one combo, and while its a good combo it gets pretty boring, since there is nothing to do otherwise between sets. Plus before I get into the Blackblood issue, I just wanted to say that SE removing Scourge was a mistake. I am aware that they got rid of pure DoTs as a whole for most Jobs, but DRK was the only tank that their DoT worked in their rotation. People said they kinda want a DoT tank and this was SE's chance to do that similar to Bard.

Anyways the main issue I have/see with DRK is the resources they have to manage. Removing Delirium, or a second combo finisher rather, was dumb, they just should of changed the effect of Delirium; why not have it buff their magic damage; or better yet put Scourge in its place. Why not remove/revamp some of the fluff they have with spells like Dark Passenger and Abyssal Drain. While they are decent skills, their MP cost combined with the no MP regeneration, PERIOD, makes them not too user friendly. I'm sure in any big pull Unleash and Salted Earth will be the main source of AoE, as it maintains enmity while dealing decent damage. Besides the new go to for AoE is Quietus since it restores MP too. Why was Blood Price made to only work when you have Grit active, it's an MP restoration skill, you use the most MP when you are using Darkside, even without Grit active. The change to not being able to regenerate MP at all was "different", but not too terrible, adding Blackblood, not terrible, both together, they are terrible.

BlackBlood is one of the most annoying gauges to well gauge. It only charges with one attack and 2 oGCD skills, very slowly. Compared to the other two tanks whose gauges charge at a reasonable pace. For WAR, to use one of its gauge skills you'd only need to utilize 3CGD skills for the 20 cost skills, and 6CGD skills for the 50 cost skills, or just use the instant 50 oGCD skill. For PLD, there Sword Oath gauge increases by 5 for every auto-attack which is roughly a GCD on its own, in this regard you'll reach 50 in roughly 10GCDs. Sheild Oath is even better, because while the increase is tied to their blocking mechanic, their Holy Spirit spell increases the gauge by 20 while in Shield Oath, thats 3GCDs to use a gauge skill. But DRK, oh DRK...

DRKs gauge increases only with its Souleater skill, which requires 3GCDs to reach, and the gauge only increases by 10 at a time. since the minimum skills need is 50 to use, that means we have to wait 15GCDs to use just one of these skills. Granted PLD while in Sword Oath needs roughly 10GCDs to use a skill, but during that wait time they, have other stuff to do. DRK only has the one combo, so you are literally standing there spamming it, even at max level.

I can't say what I would of preferred to see when it came for the new DRK to be revealed, but I wasn't expecting this. DRK was my primary tank in HW, but now its a sad pale imitation. And the main reason in my opinion is the disconnect between its gauge and its skills; plus the lack of another branching combo.

[347SPECTRE]

Snip

While you are mostly correct about DRK gauge building slowly, you are discounting the fact that Blood weapon and blood price both boost blackblood generation.

[Nihility]

While you are mostly correct about DRK gauge building slowly, you are discounting the fact that Blood weapon and blood price both boost blackblood generation.

blackest night gives a full 50 even if you use it correctly. Problem is often times the shield and the bloodguauge together still isn't worth the mp cost.

It's kind of the whole point i was trying to get at, DRK is so full of situationally changing priorities and their mp is spread so thin it just becomes a management nightmare.

Look at unmend, unleash, abyssal drain, and dark passage as an example of bloat as well
abyssal drain basically does the same thing as unmend and unleash together and higher potency for not much more mp and a very potent dark arts effect
but most dark knight's don't use it because it's awkward to have skills with overlapping use.
and dark passenger is very often not worth it's cost even though it's ogc just because mp is so limited

[addz3]

Not sure what you mean by "since the cross class purge they seem under equipped"

I just meant that they lost a lot of abilities and skills. A few are mentioned below like scourge, the original delirium or became usable by other tanks, losing their identity in the processv a little bit or there unique skill

[KageTokage]

I wouldn't mind if they just decided to remove the MP costs from The Blackest Night and Dark Passenger and took Grit off the GCD (Why does only WAR have the OGCD stance privilege in first place?).

It would boost their DPS by allowing more MP to be used for Dark Arts.

[whiskeybravo]

(Why does only WAR have the OGCD stance privilege in first place?).

Because that's the way it's always been for War? Additionally their cornerstone abilities are locked behind each stance, unlike PLD and mostly unlike DRK - Blood price/weapon notwithstanding. It doesn't cost War anything to switch stances - but it does cost them abilities. If you want to talk about the costs being imbalanced, that's fair, but it's an entirely different discussion. The main reasons Defiance/Deliverance are oGCD is because there is no innate damage mitigation from the stance and because War looses parts of their tanking kit when switching.

Grit is definitely the "in between" GCD/oGCD and should be looked at by most opinions. I personally have mixed feelings on PLD oaths, I suppose if forced to settle on something I'd lean towards taking it off the GCD but retaining MP cost as PLD (and DRK) both recover MP naturally via their DPS rotations. If you are needing to switch stances because a run is going south, the last thing you should be focusing on at that point is your DPS. Just make it easy enough to switch stances and recover, then switch back when stabilized.

"But War can negate damage penalty" Big whoopee. War doesn't go to defiance and pop unchained for a DPS increase, it's still a loss. Additionally, consider that you rarely tank in Defiance with Unchained for the full 20 sec duration. At most for 3-4 GCDs on the pull, and 10 sec mid-fight until we can switch back to deliverance. (for prog it's a bit more of an advantage but not by the time you have the fight "on farm"). DRK has good snap aggro with DAPS, so it's just PLD that's losing out. But let's be honest, it would still not be optimal for a PLD to pull even if there were no MP costs/GCD loss associated with stance change. It's still delaying their dot and they still have the weakest aggro combo.

For DRK, there have been a ton of changes mentioned in the tank forums, so I don't really understand why the OP would rather have "non-tank feedback and discussions" when the one's actually tanking & commenting have a pretty good handle on what needs to happen. Regardless, they need a bit of help defensively, offensively, and utility-ely. CD reduction on Shadow Wall, a fix to LD so it's not such trash compared to HG/Holmgang. TBN would be better as a 30ish sec CD with no MP cost to help alleviate the constant tug-of-war between mitigation & dps. And they need something to compete with Divine Veil/Shake it Off - be it either giving them back HW-style Reprisal mechanic or another copy/paste AoE shield. And finally I believe they should offer a bit higher DPS than PLD. PLD simply has too much utility and defense to warrant their damage output even by SE's own idea of "balance". I certainly don't want to see PLD suffer like they did in HW, but DRK is kind of in that spot right now and they need to do something. Otherwise it'd be better for all of us to just #deleteDRK and focus on having 2 really strong, desired tank jobs.

[addz3]

I don't really understand why the OP would rather have "non-tank feedback and discussions" when the one's actually tanking & commenting have a pretty good handle on what needs to happen

Because not everybody reads the tank forums and you don't need to be a tank to have an opinion.