[RDM Suggestion] AoE Attack Phase

[PatronasCharm]

So, I know SE isn't going to make any sort of change overhaul (mix up) before 5.0, So perhaps maybe we could see something like this for 4.5? Idk, I know we need some slight potency boosts.

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A new AoE Rotation for Trash mobs

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Enhanced Scatter >> procs Veraero / Verthunder to be an AoE, and halfs the potency to hit enemies within range, and grants the same amount of White / Black.

[Enhanced Veraero] Deals wind damage with the potency of 150 to enemies within range: may trigger Enhanced Scatter

[Enhanced Verthunder] Deals thunder damage with the potency of 150 to enemies within range: may trigger Enhanced Scatter

AoE versions can still proc. Fire/Stone, but they won't be AoEs.

I originally proposed a Blizzard / Water to be an AoE rotation, but perhaps that might take away from WHM or BLM a bit too much, thus why it wasn't taken too well.

Thanks ahead of time! Pat out

[Wayfinder3]

Ugh, i don't think thats a terrible idea however, i believe rdm's rotation should lose rng not gain it.
I propose Verwater(100pt) 15 >> VerBlizzard(100pt)15 >> Moulinet -30, scatter being tied to rng means that it's not fulfilling the purpose it's supposed to as an AoE Rotation but instead feels like an AoE alternative to jolt 2.
i.e scatter(100 pt) at 3 enemies is 300pt which is equal to using one cast of thunder or Aero but doesn't give the same amount of mana. so it's generally better to alternate til you can moulinet or manafication into even more moulinet.
Scatter 300 + Aero 300 + Scatter 300 + Thunder 300 = 1200 potency, while simply spamming scatter for the same amount of gcd's will net you 300 x 4= 1200 but significantly less mana.
however at 4 or more enemies scatter spamming is just better since that 400 per gcd.

My problem is that either scatter isn't worth using alone, or moulinet is too impractical to get to unless you prep it in your single target rotation. Using scatter to get to moulinet is just not smart, unless you're talking dungeon trash and even then you're using scatter because it's an Aoe filler, not because you want to use moulinet. tapping into melee routes and having an AoE rotation similar to samurai is what i'd prefer for red mage. making Ver Holy and Ver Flare AoE would be a nice change to make them more faithful to their original forms

[Rongway]

simply spamming scatter for the same amount of gcd's will net you 300 x 4= 1200 but significantly less mana.

First set of alternating spells: Scatter [3|3] + Veraero [11|0] + Scatter (0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]) + Verthunder [0|11] yields [17|17] - [22|22] mana (expected [18.25|18.25]).
Subsequent sets: Scatter (0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]) + Veraero [11|0] + Scatter (0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]) + Verthunder [0|11] yields [17|17] - [27|27] mana (expected [19.5|19.5]).

First set of 4xScatter is [3|3] + 3(0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]), or [12|12] - [27|27] (expected [15.75|15.75])
Subsequent sets are 4(0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]), [12|12] - [32|32] (expected [17|17]).

Here's a more readable table

                            Min        Max        Expected
Alternating (1st set)       [17|17]    [22|22]    [18.25|18.25]
Alternating (after 1st)     [17|17]    [27|27]    [19.5 |19.5 ]
Scatter spam (1st set)      [12|12]    [27|27]    [15.75|15.75]
Scatter spam (after 1st)    [12|12]    [32|32]    [17   |17   ]

Alternating spells guarantees [5|5] more than the minimum, but expected values are only [2.5|2.5] apart. Alternating spells are expected to generate more mana, but will only grant one extra E.Moulinet per twelve spells compared to full Scatter spam.

Alternating on a group of 3 (and, in some cases, larger groups) is a good idea, but the best reason is to keep a stronger mob even with the rest of the group; not necessarily because of the extra mana generation.

[Mhaeric]

Scatter 3|3 + Veraero 11|0 + Scatter 3|3 + Verthunder 0|11 yields 17|17 mana.

Scatter spam is 3|3 + 3(0.75(3|3) + 0.25(8|8)), with an expected yield of 15.75 | 15.75, a minimum of 12|12 and a max of 27|27.

Alternating spells yields 5|5 more than the minimum, but only 1.25|1.25 more than expected.
The best use of alternating spells is to keep a stronger mob even with the rest of the group; not necessarily to generate more mana.

You left out Enhanced Scatter in your first one so it's a 75% chance to get 17|17 and 25% chance to get 22|22 for an expected average result over time of 18.25 for 4 GCD. Your math on the second is wrong too, I think, and its expected average result is a lot less since you won't always get 3 chances at the proc. I.e. if you proc then your next one is guaranteed not to proc. The max at any rate is 22|22 not 27|27 since you have to at best alternate Scatter with Enhanced Scatter. I'd have to sit down and calculate it out a bit more, but don't have time atm since I'm on the way out the door to work. Either way, even in the short term it's always better to use the alternating single target one. On 3 mobs anyway. Once you get more than 3 then the potency output increase outweighs any balance discussion.

[Rongway]

You left out Enhanced Scatter in your first one so it's a 75% chance to get 17|17 and 25% chance to get 22|22 for an expected average result over time of 18.25 for 4 GCD.

Oh! You're right, I missed that one. Previous post has been updated with better maths. Thanks.

Your math on the second is wrong too, I think, and its expected average result is a lot less since you won't always get 3 chances at the proc. I.e. if you proc then your next one is guaranteed not to proc.

No, Enhanced Scatter still has the same 25% chance to proc another Enhanced Scatter. You can have an indefinitely long string of Enhanced Scatters.

[Kabooa]

Oh! You're right, I missed that one.


No, Enhanced Scatter still has the same 25% chance to proc another Enhanced Scatter. You can have an indefinitely long string of Enhanced Scatters.

Can confirm.

Scatter strings are the jackpot. nothing like getting 32/32 in 4 gcds.

[Kabooa]

Man I wish I remembered how to do probability, but yeah.

That sounds right. "significantly less" made me raise an eyebrow.

That said, I'd be completely fine if Scatter had a bonus effect of making the next spell cast at 50% reduced potency but hit everything in the radius. A fair AOE damage buff and letting you manipulate your MP bar a bit more actively.

[PatronasCharm]

More than likely yes, maybe the AOE spell would have to have it’s mana generarion cut by half as well; to balance out Scatter / Scatter.

Also if it did have that AOE buff to its next spell, it would open up more variety in spells, rather than introducing a new AOE cast spell, like Verwater or Verblizzard (which I’m not against of course)

As far as an ancient spell being AOE, perhaps a new ancient finisher in the coming expansion could give us one, I’m down for a Quake / Flood / is Freeze AOE. But not all.

[PatronasCharm]

More than likely yes, maybe the AOE spell would have to have it’s mana generarion cut by half as well; to balance out Scatter / Scatter.

Also if it did have that AOE buff to its next spell, it would open up more variety in spells, rather than introducing a new AOE cast spell, like Verwater or Verblizzard (which I’m not against of course)

As far as an ancient spell being AOE, perhaps a new ancient finisher in the coming expansion could give us one, I’m down for a Quake / Flood / is Freeze AOE. But not all.

[AppleJinx]

Rdm currently has 3 aoe options. Scatter spam > enhanced moulinet spam > contra sixte on cd. You can even work manafication in there to get even more enhanced moulinet spams if a pack doesn't die quite as fast. The number of options is fine compared to other casters where blm has flare, thunder 4, foul and fire 2 you don't really want to use after you reach level 68 anyway for trash and smn has bane, painflare, shadow flare, death flare or akh morn.