Is Tanking Boring?

[347SPECTRE]

Also, personal gripe, the way the Dark Knight holds its greatsword is horrendous. I REALLY want to be able to change that. Hold that heavy thing like Cloud or Caius do, for the love of god.
And, not a single one of the tanks projects the "powerful" vibe near almost all other jobs give off. This is what kills it for me.

The stance used on DRK is a real guard stance called Ochs (Or Ox) It's a highly defensive stance, which makes sense seeing how DRK is a tank. Though one thing I've noticed is that DRK does like to switch to other stances during attacks, but its default is Ochs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBmwNyOXbiU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRjncraV6ak

Cloud uses this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-UrC3-sEgE

[Otorinth]

The stance used on DRK is a real guard stance called Ochs (Or Ox) It's a highly defensive stance, which makes sense seeing how DRK is a tank. Though one thing I've noticed is that DRK does like to switch to other stances during attacks, but its default is Ochs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBmwNyOXbiU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRjncraV6ak

Cloud uses this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-UrC3-sEgE

The Ochs stance also allows for some pretty nasty counter attacks. Counter-attacking, being Dark Knight's old shtick (Low Blow, Reprisal, Dark Dance), further reinforcing it using that stance.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

In terms of aesthetics, I feel like the three tanks are actuallu the strongest looking physical jobs in the game...

That's not the point of the thread, but Erudito had me confused x) Anyway, I think it's right that we're just glorified dps, and yeah, that's a shame. Especially when, for example, you had more mitigation skills in 2.X than in 4.X... I've recently done T9 sync with some friends, and it's actually a mess, not because the party is bad, but simply because back when I first did it, as PLD, I had many more CDs that were actually all used. The more time passes, the more we're becoming damage dealers, and that's a shame.

I think the whole game needs to take a step back in damage expectancies... In the second coil of bahamut, the dps checks were hard, but not in any way hard as Sigma savage dps checks are. Why ? Because now, everyone's expected to have 99.5% uptime. In T7, you have a kiter that's just spending most of his time kiting to make sure an add is in proper position. That guy has a low dps, but that's alright, because the focus was on mechanics, not on damage. And, guess what ? It actually took a longer time for people to beat the second coil than for them to beat SigmaSavage.

The whole damage meta is a wreck that's slowly simplifying things to the core.

[Launched]

That's not the point of the thread, but Erudito had me confused x) Anyway, I think it's right that we're just glorified dps, and yeah, that's a shame. Especially when, for example, you had more mitigation skills in 2.X than in 4.X... I've recently done T9 sync with some friends, and it's actually a mess, not because the party is bad, but simply because back when I first did it, as PLD, I had many more CDs that were actually all used. The more time passes, the more we're becoming damage dealers, and that's a shame.

I think the whole game needs to take a step back in damage expectancies... In the second coil of bahamut, the dps checks were hard, but not in any way hard as Sigma savage dps checks are. Why ? Because now, everyone's expected to have 99.5% uptime. In T7, you have a kiter that's just spending most of his time kiting to make sure an add is in proper position. That guy has a low dps, but that's alright, because the focus was on mechanics, not on damage. And, guess what ? It actually took a longer time for people to beat the second coil than for them to beat SigmaSavage.

I don't think any of this is accurate. ARR PLD didn't have better cooldowns than SB PLD, the problem is that you're comparing a tank at level cap to a tank 5/7ths to the level cap. At 52 you get Sheltron and block works in magic damage, which is so much better than Foresight and Stoneskin. It's the same on the other tanks, their mitigation at 70 is better than ARR/HW. The game just isn't balanced around old raids any more.

The reason people had low dps in some Coil fights is because they (including me) were bad at the game. Nothing about T7's design stopped a BRD or SMN from having max uptime while kiting, people were just bad and could only focus on mechanics. Coil fights were all mechanically simple compared to the third and fourth fights of most tiers in Alex/Omega, and they would be no trouble at all for groups that can clear Alex/Omega.

[DaulBan]

Personally I think tanks are fine. Their DPS rotations are kinda blah (PLD in particular) but that's fine, you usually have other things to worry about too which makes it a bit more interesting. Increasing the complexity of the DPS rotations would be A-OK by me, but since they changed zerk/irzerk WAR I'm guessing that's not really on the table lol.

I think the whole game needs to take a step back in damage expectancies... In the second coil of bahamut, the dps checks were hard, but not in any way hard as Sigma savage dps checks are. Why ? Because now, everyone's expected to have 99.5% uptime. In T7, you have a kiter that's just spending most of his time kiting to make sure an add is in proper position. That guy has a low dps, but that's alright, because the focus was on mechanics, not on damage. And, guess what ? It actually took a longer time for people to beat the second coil than for them to beat SigmaSavage.

The whole damage meta is a wreck that's slowly simplifying things to the core.

Having high uptime isn't that hard once you get used to the fight, and in no way shape or form are the Sigmascape DPS checks hard as long as people don't die. Furthermore to say the current meta is wrecking things seems a little weird given the fact that the meta has existed in its current form since Gordias. We've had more time with tanks being DPS oriented than not by now so if it was going to wreck things you'd think it would have happened by now.

[Vurtney]

I have been tanking for a long ass time in general and there's one thing that grinds my gear in XIV: the obsession for more DPS. High numbers are great but it never had the same appeal to me as mitigation. The difficulty in this game is all over the place so it's no wonder the community prefers more DPS over, well anything else when there's no need for extra mitigation or healing. It doesn't help that tanks and healers, due to job system, are stuck in a limbo between pseudo dps and main role (main role my ass)

I enjoy tanking in this game. I don't enjoy being pressured into a DPS role when it's not the reason i play a tank to begin with. There's a time and place for everyone in a raid to push DPS but when it's all that matters, there's a fundamental problem in the game design (holy trinity)

Edit: Sometimes i see people in my FC complaining and laughing at random tanks doing X DPS and i just want to say something really bad at them just out of spite.

Edit 2: I think S-E was right on the money with Coil when it came to mitigation, healing and DPS requirements. Shame it went downhill during and after Alex regarding raid design philosophy in this game.

[Izsha]

I have been tanking for a long ass time in general and there's one thing that grinds my gear in XIV: the obsession for more DPS. High numbers are great but it never had the same appeal to me as mitigation. The difficulty in this game is all over the place so it's no wonder the community prefers more DPS over, well anything else when there's no need for extra mitigation or healing. It doesn't help that tanks and healers, due to job system, are stuck in a limbo between pseudo dps and main role (main role my ass)

I enjoy tanking in this game. I don't enjoy being pressured into a DPS role when it's not the reason i play a tank to begin with. There's a time and place for everyone in a raid to push DPS but when it's all that matters, there's a fundamental problem in the game design (holy trinity)

Edit: Sometimes i see people in my FC complaining and laughing at random tanks doing X DPS and i just want to say something really bad at them just out of spite.

Edit 2: I think S-E was right on the money with Coil when it came to mitigation, healing and DPS requirements. Shame it went downhill during and after Alex regarding raid design philosophy in this game.

I wouldn't say it 'went downhill'. In 2.0 players were bad. Tanks often wore full parry gear because most people honestly thought it was good, not because it was ACTUALLY good. Back before there were parsers, stat weights (though those have been replaced by better means too) people just fumbled around and took shots in the dark on how to play. Stance dancing didn't exist. Coordination between party members was bad. Damage was a complete unknown.

We didn't have the knowledge we do now. World 1st groups trash new raids in a matter of hours or days because we understand how to play better. The 1st few raids took significantly longer to clear for world 1st and regular groups because we were ignorant and bad. SE upped the DPS requirements in alex, but dropped them right back down for sigma/delta. The fights today have really, really low bars for DPS relative to what players can actually achieve. The playerbase just got better and Turtle Tanks got left behind.

This to me was more a result of the golden age of a new MMO. The 1st couple patches when everything is new, everyone is bad, and no one knows anything. Vanilla WoW. FFXI at JP (and again at NA) release. FFXIV 2.X. The early days are always played completely differently because people don't understand the game well enough to optimize. Over time these fresh experiences and innovative times fizzle out because theres no innovation when the game is unpacked and analyzed. It just steadily marches towards optimization.

[Kabooa]

The 1st few raids took significantly longer to clear for world 1st and regular groups because we were ignorant and bad..

I'd argue it was because mechanics were obscure AF.

Notice how Fireball from Twintania hasn't made a return, or Dive Bombs are now only in uniform areas as well as the starting point clearly telegraphed? Boss Arenas are strictly circular or Square and flat?

[Shurrikhan]

I'd argue it was because mechanics were obscure AF.

Notice how Fireball from Twintania hasn't made a return, or Dive Bombs are now only in uniform areas as well as the starting point clearly telegraphed? Boss Arenas are strictly circular or Square and flat?

They weren't any more difficult to follow, however, than any other form of stack symbol or non-indicated linear AoE made since, however. They could as easily have made fireball the stack marker we typically see today; they simply opted for something a bit more obvious due to both added size and therein room for appendable arrow elements to indicate directionality. The returning charge on the chariot fight of Rab, while insignificant, also follows the same linear AoE pattern without any zonal indicator. There's also a large difference between no zonal indicator and "not clearly telegraphed". At most, T9 experienced the latter. Twin's dives were straightforward.

Personally I hugely miss the idea of an arena not necessarily being perfectly square or circular.

[Sylvain]

I personally find tanking "not very interesting" (but not boring) in FF14 because you're just a subpar dps with a few CD you pop there and there.

Looking at forums, tanks only think about their dps, in game they only think about their dps.
In other words, most tank play as dps. (the only difference is that the boss is on them)

If the tank survival was a more active task, I would find it more interesting.
For instance, The Blackest Night is my favorite skill by miles in SB.(for tanks)
It absorbs quite a lot, has a short cd and requires timing, in otherwords, a poorly executed TBN will do little whereas a good one will significantly improve your survival.

For me at the very least, if tank were more centered around actively caring about their survival (to the point where you'd see a huge difference between a good and bad tank like you do for dps performing well or poorly) I'd find them interesting and more fun to play.