Quit Ruining The General Discussions

[Rinuko]

Vote KaivaC for Forum god!

[Vhailor]

Or... Just continue to complain for no reason at all. Because that's how dissatisfied customers do things these days... Sit on a computer and complain and tweet about it to other players on hopes that they'll either join them, or they "prove" that they're white knights themselves.

Yeah, that will totally show the devs that we mean serious business, right?

I mean, not to poke too big a hole in your point or anything, but refusing to shut up, and rallying together as many individuals as possible who also won't shut up, is pretty much the recipe for effecting change. Our venue might be a forum rather than a megaphone, and we might post waves of threads instead of marching down a street, but the core approach being taken is quite familiar to anyone involved in activism of any kind.

Besides, as another long-running complaint thread has successfully pointed out, SE hasn't exactly left us many options. There aren't any real customer surveys; the Live Letter questions are predominantly cherry-picked softballs. Sure, we could just leave - and honestly, I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on that myself - but by the same token, you could just stop reading negative threads on the forums.

In short: please don't tell others how to behave or what to do. We've as much right to voice negative opinions as you do to voice positive ones. And you can count on me to say the exact same thing if I come across a thread requesting people stop creating positively-themed posts, too. If you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that, for all forum-goers, regardless of what opinions are held.

[HyoMinPark]

In short: please don't tell others how to behave or what to do. We've as much right to voice negative opinions as you do to voice positive ones. And you can count on me to say the exact same thing if I come across a thread requesting people stop creating positively-themed posts, too. If you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that, for all forum-goers, regardless of what opinions are held.

Which is fine; people are of course allowed their own opinions. But there are certain posters on here that argue just for the sake of arguing in every single thread, as well as creating their own thread just to continue arguing. It gets to be little annoying when they start picking fights with every poster left and right, and does not make for reasonable discussion nor debate. The posters that act so antagonistic like that are actually more likely to make the developers completely ignore and/or dismiss their complaints because of their unreasonable and abrasive nature. They don’t provide constructive criticism, only negativity.

It's general discussion so, people can speak their opinion. It's fair. And, I'm fine with this. However...
According to increasing numbers of this kind of topic, it will be better if people make it in one thread. Some topics go down or to next page because of this.
General discussion is ours. Please make it nice

Off-Topic: I wanna know opinion of Japanese players. What do they think about this?

What the JP playerbase think about certain controversial topics, I cannot say. But their forums are all consolidated into singular megathreads. If someone posts a topic about something, anyone with the same concerns and/or opinions post in that same thread as opposed to making their own thread about the same thing.

[Sigma-Astra]

In short: please don't tell others how to behave or what to do. We've as much right to voice negative opinions as you do to voice positive ones. And you can count on me to say the exact same thing if I come across a thread requesting people stop creating positively-themed posts, too. If you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that, for all forum-goers, regardless of what opinions are held.

I'm not trying to be offensive or pick a fight with you, but.....you're basically contradicting yourself and doing exactly what you're telling others not to do here.

[KaivaC]

To be fair, the General Discussion is where the most players congregate and SE has already admitted they look at thread size when it comes to responding to concerns from their playerbase. I don't think it's in any way wrong to have an issue and voice it civilly, particularly in one of the very few places where it actually might be heard. Different people have different tolerances for certain issues and as customers we all have a right to voice them. Just because one person has no issue with how things are implemented does not mean that their stance supersedes others, either. No one's opinions hold more 'weight' and that's a dangerous precedent to set.

With that said however, actively antagonizing others is not the way to go about it. I'm aware of who you are referring to and some of their posts and I do agree very much that debates should be kept civil.

I mean, not to poke too big a hole in your point or anything, but refusing to shut up, and rallying together as many individuals as possible who also won't shut up, is pretty much the recipe for effecting change. Our venue might be a forum rather than a megaphone, and we might post waves of threads instead of marching down a street, but the core approach being taken is quite familiar to anyone involved in activism of any kind.

Besides, as another long-running complaint thread has successfully pointed out, SE hasn't exactly left us many options. There aren't any real customer surveys; the Live Letter questions are predominantly cherry-picked softballs. Sure, we could just leave - and honestly, I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on that myself - but by the same token, you could just stop reading negative threads on the forums.

In short: please don't tell others how to behave or what to do. We've as much right to voice negative opinions as you do to voice positive ones. And you can count on me to say the exact same thing if I come across a thread requesting people stop creating positively-themed posts, too. If you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that, for all forum-goers, regardless of what opinions are held.

I can respect what you're saying, because you said it in a respectful manner. And I will respond in the same respectful manner. I don't think that the complaints are invalid. I may not agree with them, but I recognize that people have legitimate concerns. But the same issues are being brought up repeatedly and they are going nowhere. In my opinion, these complaints really are not going anywhere. True, you are restricted to 40 characters on the support website, but in that same token, what has been the most reasonable way to get the devs to take notice of something: gaming websites, huge unsub numbers, things of that nature. Keep in mind, my comments are not directed at those who have issues with the game and want to unsub. They are specifically for those who have been constantly complaining about the exact same things for the last week and a half.

Again, I have no problems with complaints. What I'm pointing at right now is the same ones constantly occurring over multiple threads that it feels like nothing positive can be talked about right now.

[Vhailor]

Which is fine; people are of course allowed their own opinions. But there are certain posters on here that argue just for the sake of arguing in every single thread, as well as creating their own thread just to continue arguing. It gets to be little annoying when they start picking fights with every poster left and right, and does not make for reasonable discussion nor debate. The posters that act so antagonistic like that are actually more likely to make the developers completely ignore and/or dismiss their complaints because of their unreasonable and abrasive nature. They don’t provide constructive criticism, only negativity.

A fair point as well, but, again, I draw a distinction between telling people to shush, and venting. I think KaivaC crossed the line on that one, probably deliberately, but that's why I'm responding in this manner.

I'm not trying to be offensive or pick a fight with you, but.....you're basically contradicting yourself and doing exactly what you're telling others not to do here.

No, I'm not. I simply used decisive language to state the principle of neutrality and emphasize self-determination. I think that was clear enough from the context, but I'm also up later than normal, so maybe it isn't. *shrugs*

I can respect what you're saying, because you said it in a respectful manner. And I will respond in the same respectful manner. I don't think that the complaints are invalid. I may not agree with them, but I recognize that people have legitimate concerns. But the same issues are being brought up repeatedly and they are going nowhere. In my opinion, these complaints really are not going anywhere. True, you are restricted to 40 characters on the support website, but in that same token, what has been the most reasonable way to get the devs to take notice of something: gaming websites, huge unsub numbers, things of that nature. Keep in mind, my comments are not directed at those who have issues with the game and want to unsub. They are specifically for those who have been constantly complaining about the exact same things for the last week and a half.

Again, I have no problems with complaints. What I'm pointing at right now is the same ones constantly occurring over multiple threads that it feels like nothing positive can be talked about right now.

It's a fair point, to be sure. I can empathize. I routinely get driven nuts by a variety of forum topics. I'm simply pointing out that whether a thread is useful or not is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. As an example, suppose you're absolutely right - that the complaints aren't going anywhere, that it's not constructive in any way, etc. Isn't it possible, indeed likely, that those who continue to create and respond to the threads still get value out of it? Even venting for the sake of venting can be useful. I suspect you found it therapeutic to craft this thread, too - despite the fact that you surely know it isn't likely to dent the negativity floating through the forums right now.

I'm curious, by the way - do you find it difficult to ignore the negative threads on the forums? I know when I pop on, I tend to glance through the list, identify the threads with titles that interest me (or that I've posted in), and then settle in to read and engage. There are a number of posts that I couldn't care less about, because I find them to be boring or aggravating. They never so much as catch my eye. I'd be interested to know if your experience and approach is significantly different.

[KaivaC]

It's a fair point, to be sure. I can empathize. I routinely get driven nuts by a variety of forum topics. I'm simply pointing out that whether a thread is useful or not is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. As an example, suppose you're absolutely right - that the complaints aren't going anywhere, that it's not constructive in any way, etc. Isn't it possible, indeed likely, that those who continue to create and respond to the threads still get value out of it? Even venting for the sake of venting can be useful. I suspect you found it therapeutic to craft this thread, too - despite the fact that you surely know it isn't likely to dent the negativity floating through the forums right now.

I'm curious, by the way - do you find it difficult to ignore the negative threads on the forums? I know when I pop on, I tend to glance through the list, identify the threads with titles that interest me (or that I've posted in), and then settle in to read and engage. There are a number of posts that I couldn't care less about, because I find them to be boring or aggravating. They never so much as catch my eye. I'd be interested to know if your experience and approach is significantly different.

Have I gone overboard in my initial post? Possibly. My primary issue with the particular complaints that I'm addressing is that, if the poster intended to have an actual discussion about it for a particular subject, why would they confront everybody who disagrees and give off this aura that flat out says, 'No, you're absolutely wrong; there is no middle ground in this; I'm right and you're wrong; if you don't agree with me 100%, then you're in the wrong'. This is not just a single poster. Nor is it just on one side of the lines that have been drawn in many of these threads. It's been snippy back and forth arguments that seems to be about who can win the like contest by having the best snippy response.

Now with that being said, I can't lie, I have gotten very snippy myself recently, more so than usual, but that was in response to something else, and even in that thread, it's starting to merge into P2W/app rage. Usually, I do zero in towards the topics that interest me, or I'll throw up something that I intend to have discussions about. As it stands right now, I can't exactly ignore them because they're just so many of them. I have a strong preference for threads that I can have a discussion in. I usually won't comment in longer discussions unless it's something that really draws my attention.

This pretty much sums it up.

I recognize the irony here...still gave you a +1 like.

[KoshikiMurasaki]

It's general discussion so, people can speak their opinion. It's fair. And, I'm fine with this. However...
According to increasing numbers of this kind of topic, it will be better if people make it in one thread. Some topics go down or to next page because of this.
General discussion is ours. Please make it nice

Off-Topic: I wanna know opinion of Japanese players. What do they think about this?

[ShadowHunterrX]

I'm not trying to be offensive or pick a fight with you, but.....you're basically contradicting yourself and doing exactly what you're telling others not to do here.

Not really. She is just giving advice and it's in some way just comment sense. If you got some ass acting person in a dungeon, you also ignore it no or are you respone to it and causing more drama ? I ignore *Tales from Duty Finder* Topic for example, too many made up story's that they are the good guy and the others bad.

I understand that you guys want to discuss this. But will it have some effect ? I dont think so and it's kinda waste of time.

Many people stop playing for more then 1 reason, some drop it on the forum with a negatieve taste in there mounth. Maybe some too much and thats bec they like the game very much.

And too behonest. There is not many reason to play the game for alot of people and with the last live letter things doesnt seems to improve alot.

[KaivaC]

snip

Which is fine...FFXIV has been very divisive all throughout 4.x. But how many threads have cropped up about reasons for unsubbing (not including the joke ones). How many threads have popped up, all revolving around the app in some way, form or fashion? How many other threads got derailed about these two things lately? Being negative (sometimes rightfully so) is one thing, but it's another when it becomes this widespread. The mods aren't going to look at this and go 'oh, players are really angry, we should get this to the dev team'. There's enough anger here that if you coordinated it, you could probably get an outlet to actually comment on it. Yes, Square isn't nearly as open to feedback as other developers are. But spreading anger across several threads over multiple pages is not an effective way of doing anything, in my opinion.