Quit Ruining The General Discussions

[TruebladeNuke]

*Snip*

With everything that was going in for the past few days on this forum, I was actually considering taking the dare to actually make a post on one of these topics on this forum (and I very hardly post on here mind you) and point out how crazy bad the discussion about the new upcoming app has gotten... but you not only beat me to the punch on that, but you basically said what I was thinking of saying. +1 to you from me. I'm adding my own thoughts to this anyway though, as I do have my own view and opinion on what'd I like to see forums doing.

*Deep breath*

It IS rather sad that just about every post that's made on more heated topics tends to get instantly shuffled into one of the several categories listed. (White Knight, troll, elitist, etc) And while those type of posters do exist, it makes it unusually harder for people who don't fall into any of those categories to actually post anything on here without being instantly labled, thus leading to yet more pointless heat. In fact, the constant labeling of other posters on here (especially as of late) is exactly one of the main reasons why I actively avoid posting on this forum... and forums in general.

I think the saddest part of this thread is that there's already several people who DID miss the point the OP is trying to say in here. No where did the OP mention that he/she wants the complaints to stop... and in fact encourages people to keep complaints going. I myself used to see complaints only in a negative light. But down the road, I realized it's not the complaints themselves getting to me. It's the way people bring up said complaints that bothers me. One quick example of that is thinking that simply yelling the loudest is somehow the best way to get your opinion heard... rather then actually being constructive about it. And another more recent example I could list is the idea that somehow, multiple numerous threads of the same topic is somehow a good idea... and it isn't, quite frankly. A single LARGE megathread revolving around the topic that's up for discussion is a far more organized way of going about it. Honestly, this side of the community could stand to take notes from the Japan community when it comes to topic discussions. More focus on megathreads instead of a bunch of smallers ones that clutter the first page.

These days, I firmly believe that people should complain if they have a problem with the game, as that's how you convince developers to make changes as necessary. HOWEVER! There's both good and bad ways of doing that... and about half the time I'm on this forum, I often see that latter. (The bad) It's entirely possible to issue a complaint to the development team WITHOUT sounding like a douche. Heck, take me for instance. I've gotten to the point of which no matter what game I play, even if I love it to bits, I will ALWAYS find faults in it. (Even games like The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild) For FFXIV specifically, I still hate what the development team did to DRK going in to Stormblood. (I miss Dark Dance. Give it back!) I even issued my own complaint on a DRK thread in the Tank section of the forum about why I'm disappointed with the Stormblood DRK and how some steps could be taken to fix the job. However... do you see me running around yelling "THE SKY IS FALLING!" over this? No? Didn't think so.

Honestly, I don't get why it's so hard to tell the developers what complaint you have about the game and actually be a mature adult about it by using this thing called "diplomacy". Sure, I don't know any of the developers personally, so I can't call them my friends. (For those who were suddenly thinking of rushing in and saying "BUT THEY'RE NOT OUR FRIENDS!") And it's true that they want to make money. (Of course they do. They're a business. But that's an entirely different topic to get into) But that doesn't change the fact that developers are human beings too, and they too would appreciate it if you would actually control yourself and talk things over with them in a calm controlled manner, rather then yelling at the top of your lungs at them.

That all said, certain developers of other game companies haven't been doing themselves any favors lately with some of the moves they've been making... *Looks at Metal Gear: Survive*

So, long story short, people should continue with complaints for things that could stand to be improved. Just be responsible about it and don't lower yourself to being a whiny 12-year old when you do deliver a complaint. Don't forget that compliments are a thing too. (We don't need THAT much negativity on forums. It's nice to see something positive once in a while) And most of all, never forget that different people like different things, even if you're both fans of the same game, movie, etc. The last part often being the leading cause of heated discussions on forums (that sadly do devolve into personal insults on a good number of threads) and is pretty much the very reason why I swear by the Bill Cosby quote I wave around in my signature. (I should update my FFXIV profile pic at some point too. That's an old picture I'm using)

"I don't know what the key to success is, but I DO know that the key to failure is trying to please everyone." - Bill Cosby

...

Alright. I've dropped my two cents. I know two cents hardly ever have any impact, but I wanted to get that off my chest. Now I've got other things that I need to do and I'd LIKE to do elsewhere, so carry on ya'll. Maybe I'll finish my Anemos SAM set today...

[Coratanni]

More like you should go back at not posting instead of pointing out an era like 'millennials" when in my opinion millennials are far greater on a lot of aspects & no cash shop is not one of them.

The millenials still living at home with their parents? The ones who cant stay employed with full-time jobs? The ones who rack up 6 figures in college debt with degrees that arent applicable in the real world for pliable careers? The same ones wanting their school loans forgiven because they struggle to pay them and make ends meet? I could go on, and on far too easily.

[RiyahArp]

Then, why can't people just say high spenders or people with more of a disposable income? .

Whales is game dev jargon for that. It dates back to 2011, from this site, although I think the term was used in casinos earlier:

http://www.gamesbrief.com/2011/11/wh...-to-play-game/

The term kind of works a bit better because it illustrates the impact of those players as "size" and games generally fish for players to obtain and retain. It showed a truth visually that not all players in a F2P game are equal. It's not derogatory in itself, any more than calling someone who barely shops a minnow is.

A lot of the bad blood for whales comes from players experience where high spenders get serious power boosts or benefit that other players can't match. Like Whales, those players are huge fish in the sea of your game and dominate it. F2P games in general tend to suffer tremendously in endgame because of it; the game dev and critic Ramin Shokirizade had a great analogy describing whale endgame as a high stakes poker game, where players ante up and keep "bidding" by spending money to win the server till they have to fold, and the losers often move to the next game.

Its jargon that I don't think is meant derogatorily orginally, as devs really chase whales. It kind of evolved that way, but whale captures f2p spenders pretty accurately as a concept.

A single LARGE megathread revolving around the topic that's up for discussion is a far more organized way of going about it. Honestly, this side of the community could stand to take notes from the Japan community when it comes to topic discussions. More focus on megathreads instead of a bunch of smallers ones that clutter the first page.

No, it's not better. Overwatch official forums often have megathreads, and they get just as ignored too. If people were honest, they'd say megathreads are better precisely because they are easily ignorable for people who don't want to see stuff.

[Sigma-Astra]

Whales is gave dev jargon for that. It dates back to 2011, from this site, although I think the term was used in casinos earlier:

http://www.gamesbrief.com/2011/11/wh...-to-play-game/

Just because one random person says it's okay to use, doesn't mean you should follow them. I know the internet allows a certain degree of transparency since you'll never meet or see the person on the other side of the screen, but regardless of who started it, it's rude and was never meant to be used to describe other people in a positive light. I don't care what bigshot started it. Enough with using it if you don't want to be insulted back either by the people you are labeling. No one likes being labeled.

Even the person in that article who wrote it doesn't like the unflattering connotations that the word itself portrays and doesn't like it being used to describe people and would prefer the idea of "true fans" or something else entirely.

When you're using the term "whale" to argue about people that are buying something that you want, but can't afford it outright or you're trying to pin all of the game's current problems onto them, then yes, it turns into a derogatory slang and insult. And people on the OF use it often enough as such...

Just call those people large spenders, you're saying the same thing without sounding so offensive or aggressive about it. Otherwise, you're opening yourself up towards the "whales" calling you unsavory terms as well, at least the more spiteful ones anyways.

/2cents

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

What tends to cause heated arguments is certain posters arguing in extremes. They aren't presenting criticism, but outright telling you your opinion is wrong because reasons. Be it "Ultimate's a failure," "Retainers are P2W" and etc, that's what sparks the more heated responses as people. Criticising either is perfectly fine, however when the poster allows their ego to talk, well, it's going to end up being confrontational.

[Remedi]

My post was not really understood it's seems I'll explain it better:

The gaming industry created a self regulation protocol with ESRB and w/e so that governments wouldn't butt in with blind legislations, however this organizations held too much the interests of the companies in regards to loot boxes and pretty much failed in their primary objective, which has lead Blegium in his ruling and that will probably not be the only nation doing that, which will probably bring both good and bad solutions.

My point is saying that the community should not regulate itself is very dangerous because if you leave to higher powers the end rights of deciding which is right or wrong, you'll end up with real censoring in the end.
The message of this thread is not to censor complaint but to make them better and tone down the attacks ad hominen that have happened recently

[Tiraelina]

Just because one random person says it's okay to use, doesn't mean you should follow them. I know the internet allows a certain degree of transparency since you'll never meet or see the person on the other side of the screen, but regardless of who started it, it's rude and was never meant to be used to describe other people in a positive light. I don't care what bigshot started it. Enough with using it if you don't want to be insulted back either by the people you are labeling. No one likes being labeled.

Even the person in that article who wrote it doesn't like the unflattering connotations that the word itself portrays and doesn't like it being used to describe people and would prefer the idea of "true fans" or something else entirely.

When you're using the term "whale" to argue about people that are buying something that you want, but can't afford it outright or you're trying to pin all of the game's current problems onto them, then yes, it turns into a derogatory slang and insult. And people on the OF use it often enough as such...

Just call those people large spenders, you're saying the same thing without sounding so offensive or aggressive about it. Otherwise, you're opening yourself up towards the "whales" calling you unsavory terms as well, at least the more spiteful ones anyways.

/2cents

It wasn't one random person saying it. It's the entire industry these cash shops are originating. This is why you shouldn't be sticking your neck out for a business. Just because the guy they put out front seems friendly enough doesn't mean the people in back see you as anything more than a source of revenue.

I will also point out that threads like this do nothing except add to the pollution. If the CM/Mods were doing more than cross-posting JP dev replies maybe all the extra threads would get moved/merged/locked. Maybe actually fish out a response... But they don't, so you have to live with it.

[Sigma-Astra]

It wasn't one random person saying it. It's the entire industry these cash shops are originating. This is why you shouldn't be sticking your neck out for a business. Just because the guy they put out front seems friendly enough doesn't mean the people in back see you as anything more than a source of revenue.

It doesn't matter who offers the higher amount of revenue or not, if you have to label a good portion of the playerbase with an unsavory term to describe them in a negative light in order to make your argument, you're insulting them. The same can be said for labeling every single Savage player as an "elitist". It's name-calling, nothing more than that. Not every person who uses the cash shop is a "whale" which is the same that not every Savage player is an "elitist". You have your bad and good portions of people in both categories.

If I come across a person spending insane amounts of money within the cash shop, I don't call them a whale. It's their money, their right to spend it as they see freely. Do I agree with their spending habits? No, absolutely not. Should I try to butt in? Probably not, they won't listen to me either way. People spend their money as they see fit. If I come across a person in Savage that's being a jerk, I don't call them an elitist. I simply say they're being overly hostile and rude. I also don't look at every Savage raider and cash shop buyer as some evil portion of the playerbase because of the labels that people like to use.

As for sticking my neck out for a business? I'm not. It's a business, they stand to make a profit, of course they're going to look at me as a source of revenue. Any company, does that. My electric company doesn't care if I can't pay the bill on time, they'll shut my electricity off. They don't care if I have a cancer patient to take care of. They're providing a service, I can either pay for it or say goodbye to turning on the lights. That's how a profit business operates. You are a source of revenue for them, it's how they stay in business period. They're not here to make friends or play nice, they're there to get paid so that they can pay the people working for them. It's how the world rolls. This isn't new news. Literally, if you think just because you're a paying customer that you deserve some kind of super, duper, awesome friendly service....eh, I'd say you're in for a rude awakening. However, we should always hope that they offer friendly customer service to keep their customers satisfied and less likely to leave. But, this isn't a perfect world. When SE does something that actually offends me, I'll more than likely leave as well like everyone else does, you know?

A business operates to make money, not friends. It's just capitalism unfortunately.

I know my fair share of dealing with companies of that nature that you speak of, trust me. I spent $10,000 on a bathroom remodel through Lowe's only for the remodel to start falling apart within a year after learning that the contractors Lowe's hired were shoddy at their jobs (i.e. not doing things that they are required by law to do, etc) and I'm still in the process of getting Lowe's to own up towards the mistakes as per our contract when I first went to them for this project. They were the ones that hired those contractors so, they have partial responsibility towards why I've spent $10,000 on something that shouldn't be falling apart within the first year. Trust me, I know what you're talking about here. I'm living it.

[KisaiTenshi]

Then, why can't people just say high spenders or people with more of a disposable income? Why do we need to use derogatory names to section off a portion of the playerbase that's capable of purchasing optional content just because a choice few cannot or will not? Should the people that you're calling "whales" start calling the other side as "entitled, whining children" for wanting it free in-game, cheaper, or not at all? Should that side start calling those people "cheapskates"?

The answer is no on both accounts. We need to stop the name-calling and insulting of other players just because they can spend money on something they want and you want at the same time, but you're not willing to pay for it at it's full price or don't want it there period.

"Whales" is literately what companies (the term was coined by Zynga I believe in F2P games, the Farmville people) call their highest spenders. And not every "whale" is in it for themselves, they will spend large amounts of money on their friends. The analogy to reality is the dude with the expensive home, who has lavish parties every weekend.

The term itself, earliest use on the internet I can find is from 2004-2006 for poker "extreme high rollers" of online poker. It's ALWAYS used pejoratively. "A gift from the casino gods" is essentially what they are.

[NolLacnala]