Quit Ruining The General Discussions

[ReplicaX]

I have not. I only defended my self after being attacked by someone in question.

I just want to make one thing clear from reading so many of your posts. There are people on this forum that have literally referenced sources against incorrect statements which you have posted, without insulting you at all. Yet, you have thrown insults right at them, when all they did was correct you and provide you with creditable source material.

If you consider debate with counterarguments presented with source material with no insults by the poster "insulting". Then there is a communication issue with you and you need to work on it.

[Alleo]

I just want to make one thing clear from reading so many of your posts. There are people on this forum that have literally referenced sources against incorrect statements which you have posted, without insulting you at all. Yet, you have thrown insults right at them, when all they did was correct you and provide you with creditable source material.

If you consider debate with counterarguments presented with source material with no insults by the poster "insulting". Then there is a communication issue with you and you need to work on it.

I can agree that some of her posts are a bit rude. White knights and stuff like that should not be part of a discussion. BUT the other side has reacted on quite a lot of post way too harsh too. There were enough topics that made sense and had points in the OP and yet some people just posted how its that user again and nothing on topic. Some celebrated that she will be gone from the forums in a thread that was important because its an issue right now. And a couple of posters "from the other side" are also often rude to those that are not of their opinion and if they are asked for evidence they are suddenly quiet.

What do I want to say with that? Both sides did not behave for the best. That does not make the threads themselves bad. Black list a person you truly somehow dislike and/or simply ignore those threads if you think that they are not worth it. Going into them and insulting the person does not make for a good case.

[Mahrze]

So, 8 pages about complaining about others complaining?

[Linx0r]

So, 8 pages about complaining about others complaining?

This topic is waaaaaaaaaaay too long. Couldn't we have kept a TL;DR version down to less than a page? sigh, reading through the forums takes time, and now I'm bored. Can we just make the forums an EMOJI or MEME ONLY template? That would be much more entertaining than the OP's (and other's whining and complaining about EVERYTHING) topics. Honestly, at the end of the day, people will think what they want to think, write what they want to write, and complain about whatever else they want. Like the game, the forum is OPTIONAL. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WRITE OR READ ANYTHING! The fix? Write a POSITIVE thread.

[aesteval]

Are you really shock at why this thread is coming up?
It is just matter of time until forum can no longer take this type of daily dramatic, hyperbole, and illogical ranting.

And yet this thread is contributing to the problems that you listed.

[InkstainedGwyn]

So much black-and-white on these forums (and all forums on the internet, I'm aware. I've seen flame wars you wouldn't believe on knitting forums.) On both sides. If you say anything good about SE, you're a "white knight". If you suggest ways for people to improve themselves (and no, I'm not talking about 'git gud', I've seen very thorough and helpful discussions on here) you're an "elitist". If you ask for people to put some thought into their complaints and present them in an organized manner, you're "telling them not to post". If you try to point out unfair or bad aspects of a topic, event, item, or element, you're "nothing but a naysayer". Are there white knights here? Yes. Are there elitists on here? Yes. Are there folks who want to censor discussions they don't like? Yes. Are there constant naysayers on here? Yes. Their existence, however, does not then necessitate that every person who posts falls into one of those categories.

While I may not agree with some of the more extreme verbiage in some of the posts on here, I think the biggest point that I agree with - and that most people agreeing with this thread have stated - is not that they want complainers to "shut up" or any topics to be taboo. We just want moderation and consideration. Insulting people who disagree with you isn't professional or mature. Using terms like "white knight" and "elitist" with every other word sounds a lot like you're just attempting to shut up people you don't agree with. Flooding the forums with the same complaint isn't productive - it's already been noted that length of thread is what gets noticed, not volume of threads. By all means, express your discontent. I've expressed mine more than once. But if people are expressing it to actually see changes made, then why are they so against doing it in a way that has a better chance of being acknowledged?

You want proof, look at the last few months of forum posts. The three I can think of offhand that got moderator posts are: 1) Ungarmax, 2) Glamour dresser retrieval, 3) Eureka. 1) was addressed because it was what the devs considered a game-breaking bug, and they wanted to stem the rumours before they got too bad. Damage control. 2) was addressed because it was a request for factual information. 3) was addressed because the thread jumped up to almost a hundred pages in just a day or two. It was overwhelming. And on the same vein, even though I don't think it was recent, the "Guys' cool glamour" thread got a response when it was super-long, too. They're not going to jump in on complaint threads because the questions asked are usually rhetorical, or if they are actual requests for information, they're answers that even the devs wouldn't have (what's the long-term goal for the game, are we going to go free-to-play, how dare you do this thing?) And if they're not actually reading each thread, then seeing them pop up, go for 5-15 pages, then die seems more like they're not really that important.

I don't want people to stop complaining. I don't want this forum to be an echo chamber. I want this forum to be a place where people can discuss topics, and where concerns can actually be filtered and addressed. But it's hard to have discussions when people are spamming the same thing over and over again (where do you take the discussion? Which of the 30 different threads?) or angrily typing insults and refusing to actually engage in a discussion. ("O.o You must be insane for thinking such a thing." isn't really good for continuing conversations, you know?)

[TruebladeNuke]

*Snip*

With everything that was going in for the past few days on this forum, I was actually considering taking the dare to actually make a post on one of these topics on this forum (and I very hardly post on here mind you) and point out how crazy bad the discussion about the new upcoming app has gotten... but you not only beat me to the punch on that, but you basically said what I was thinking of saying. +1 to you from me. I'm adding my own thoughts to this anyway though, as I do have my own view and opinion on what'd I like to see forums doing.

*Deep breath*

It IS rather sad that just about every post that's made on more heated topics tends to get instantly shuffled into one of the several categories listed. (White Knight, troll, elitist, etc) And while those type of posters do exist, it makes it unusually harder for people who don't fall into any of those categories to actually post anything on here without being instantly labled, thus leading to yet more pointless heat. In fact, the constant labeling of other posters on here (especially as of late) is exactly one of the main reasons why I actively avoid posting on this forum... and forums in general.

I think the saddest part of this thread is that there's already several people who DID miss the point the OP is trying to say in here. No where did the OP mention that he/she wants the complaints to stop... and in fact encourages people to keep complaints going. I myself used to see complaints only in a negative light. But down the road, I realized it's not the complaints themselves getting to me. It's the way people bring up said complaints that bothers me. One quick example of that is thinking that simply yelling the loudest is somehow the best way to get your opinion heard... rather then actually being constructive about it. And another more recent example I could list is the idea that somehow, multiple numerous threads of the same topic is somehow a good idea... and it isn't, quite frankly. A single LARGE megathread revolving around the topic that's up for discussion is a far more organized way of going about it. Honestly, this side of the community could stand to take notes from the Japan community when it comes to topic discussions. More focus on megathreads instead of a bunch of smallers ones that clutter the first page.

These days, I firmly believe that people should complain if they have a problem with the game, as that's how you convince developers to make changes as necessary. HOWEVER! There's both good and bad ways of doing that... and about half the time I'm on this forum, I often see that latter. (The bad) It's entirely possible to issue a complaint to the development team WITHOUT sounding like a douche. Heck, take me for instance. I've gotten to the point of which no matter what game I play, even if I love it to bits, I will ALWAYS find faults in it. (Even games like The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild) For FFXIV specifically, I still hate what the development team did to DRK going in to Stormblood. (I miss Dark Dance. Give it back!) I even issued my own complaint on a DRK thread in the Tank section of the forum about why I'm disappointed with the Stormblood DRK and how some steps could be taken to fix the job. However... do you see me running around yelling "THE SKY IS FALLING!" over this? No? Didn't think so.

Honestly, I don't get why it's so hard to tell the developers what complaint you have about the game and actually be a mature adult about it by using this thing called "diplomacy". Sure, I don't know any of the developers personally, so I can't call them my friends. (For those who were suddenly thinking of rushing in and saying "BUT THEY'RE NOT OUR FRIENDS!") And it's true that they want to make money. (Of course they do. They're a business. But that's an entirely different topic to get into) But that doesn't change the fact that developers are human beings too, and they too would appreciate it if you would actually control yourself and talk things over with them in a calm controlled manner, rather then yelling at the top of your lungs at them.

That all said, certain developers of other game companies haven't been doing themselves any favors lately with some of the moves they've been making... *Looks at Metal Gear: Survive*

So, long story short, people should continue with complaints for things that could stand to be improved. Just be responsible about it and don't lower yourself to being a whiny 12-year old when you do deliver a complaint. Don't forget that compliments are a thing too. (We don't need THAT much negativity on forums. It's nice to see something positive once in a while) And most of all, never forget that different people like different things, even if you're both fans of the same game, movie, etc. The last part often being the leading cause of heated discussions on forums (that sadly do devolve into personal insults on a good number of threads) and is pretty much the very reason why I swear by the Bill Cosby quote I wave around in my signature. (I should update my FFXIV profile pic at some point too. That's an old picture I'm using)

"I don't know what the key to success is, but I DO know that the key to failure is trying to please everyone." - Bill Cosby

...

Alright. I've dropped my two cents. I know two cents hardly ever have any impact, but I wanted to get that off my chest. Now I've got other things that I need to do and I'd LIKE to do elsewhere, so carry on ya'll. Maybe I'll finish my Anemos SAM set today...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

What tends to cause heated arguments is certain posters arguing in extremes. They aren't presenting criticism, but outright telling you your opinion is wrong because reasons. Be it "Ultimate's a failure," "Retainers are P2W" and etc, that's what sparks the more heated responses as people. Criticising either is perfectly fine, however when the poster allows their ego to talk, well, it's going to end up being confrontational.

[Seig345]

Personally, posting multiple threads on different angles of the same topic always comes across as a kid throwing a tantrum. "One thread didn't get their attention, so I'll make more!" Honestly it just kills the credibility of the individual for me.

You can point your finger at how "horrible" things are and how much that upsets you, how no one listened to that first thread, how "darn it!" *fist into palm* something must be done!", but that doesn't somehow absolve the harm you do to your own credibility when you spam threads on a single topic. If no one cared the first time, yelling louder isn't going to change that the next time.

[aesteval]

Which you are right in that aspect and that's fine. But, did it ever occur to the people having a problem with SE that we do have a "Website Feedback & Suggestions" sub thread? Did anyone know that it existed at all? Wouldn't it make more sense to voice your complaints there where it's easier for the moderators to find it and then possibly send it off towards the director/developers instead of 10 different General Discussion topics all talking about the same thing that all get bumped in and off the front page like crazy daily sporadically?

"Website Feedback and Suggestions" sounds like it's asking for feedback and suggestions for the website and not the game. Additionally, feedback at times can make valuable use of back and forth discussion. If General Discussions is the most active area, seems like it would be the place to bring something up. If something is misposted, we do have moderators who, as we have seen, move topics to appropriate areas.