Living Dead

[Chrono_Rising]

-----
@Chrono_Rising: Most of my post was about the automatic trigger of Living Dead. Not the fact that you can (and should) heal and remove it before the full 10 seconds. I know that you can remove Living Dead before the end. Duh. Almost two thirds of your post missed my point. I seriously cannot be bothered to do a quote war with that.

Well it’s not what you wrote:

The automatic proc guarantees the full duration of the 10 seconds "1hp" state no matter what happens.

Even with benediction you will not get the full 10 seconds just because it automatically popped, nothing guarantees the full duration of Living Dead. I wouldn’t get into a quote war either when I am quoted being flat out wrong either. The first half of my post is pointing out you are making points which I already made and acknowledged about the warrior invuln which I again supported with the fact that these strategies work in the majority of the turns this tier. The point was that there are a variety of ways to handle holmgang, but Living dead doesn't you just have to heal it. This leads me to believe that you didn’t really read it and are more reactionary posting.

The second half of my post is addressing this idea that the automatic trigger was a guaranteed invuln. Your posts seem to claim that Holmgang suffers greatly from human error, and that this isn't a thing on living dead. I'm was attempting to show you some of the ways living dead can be impacted by human error.

I'll just bring one thing quickly here: you talked about Living Dead having an issue in O4S in that it required to be correctly timed. And then, in the very next paragraph, you went on to say that timings aren't a big deal after all.

I assume you are talking about this:

I like the fact that you took Neo Exdeath as an example, it's probably one of the lastest end game content where this difference is the most obvious. With Holmgang, your timing needs to be perfect. Even more so during the delta followed by a random laser that you need to avoid, which can be problematic because of the root. The chance for mistakes is quite high. With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

Living dead also has issues with thunder since healers may also need to dodge, which brings us into the early movement/removing walking dead debuff from pre-healing the debuff off. It was particularly bad for the second thunder buster. And if you had to time your LD for the thunder then you needed to pop it early on the first one, and if you popped it too early you would need to die to start the walking debuff and keep your invuln, which was possible provided you were not getting healed during that time. Be slightly late in use and it wasn't up when you needed it. Again, all skills have human error.
As I’ve pointed out, there are still errors that can happen, the cushion is not a panacea. Your points mainly lay on human error factors, the point is human error still impacts living dead. Again, most of the cushion value is in time management. And we are drastically overstating the difficulty of popping a cooldown at the last second to get additional benefits. For example holding Hallowed to catch two busters in o8s by popping it later in the cast, it is not particularly difficult.

Lets break this down, you claim that Holmgang has to be timed and the change of messing up Living dead is almost zero, and immune to the human error you are claiming holmgang suffers from.

With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

I point out that Living Dead also has the issue of being timed (because what skill doesn’t need to be timed?) and is also prone to error, but then go on to claim that I think this whole timing thing is being blown out of proportion in terms of its difficulty. And somehow I’m the one that doesn’t understand? Interesting.

Dude. Don't argue against Living Dead just for the sake of it, expecially if you don't even believe in your own arguments. Otherwise, back to square one where I made my first post: the number of people arguing against Living Dead with false/over exaggerated arguments is damn too high. Or just be honest and say that you simply want to vent and that Living Dead seems like a good scapegoat.
-----

I believe the things I’ve said, and believe I put in time and effort to actually consider the posts and issues. Your points have been pointed out as being misleading or flat out wrong, but your defense is to claim those correcting you don’t understand. Cool, I’m going to see my way out of this posting argument since clearly meaningful conversation is impossible.

[InfiniDragon]

Itll be good but its not hallowed good since you could still gets debuffs from Tank busters like susano unlike hallow ground

The healers heals hurting dark would be a good reference to older ff games

Yep, and that's fine because I'm still operating on the idea it's a shorter CD. So the shorter CD would make up for not being Hallowed.

[Ekimmak]

Sigmascape Savage 1.0 and 2.0 did a good job of exploiting the holes in Holmgang's kit. You can't solo the stack winds from 2.0 (specifically the second one, nothing nearby to Holmgang to), and if your co-tank in 1.0 gets trapped before a tankswap, it is impossible to drop the prey marker at far back and get back in time to holmgang, I've tried (instead, have to place it not as far back, so you have time to return).

/shrug. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[shao32]

Sigmascape Savage 1.0 and 2.0 did a good job of exploiting the holes in Holmgang's kit. You can't solo the stack winds from 2.0 (specifically the second one, nothing nearby to Holmgang to), and if your co-tank in 1.0 gets trapped before a tankswap, it is impossible to drop the prey marker at far back and get back in time to holmgang, I've tried (instead, have to place it not as far back, so you have time to return).

/shrug. Just my thoughts on the matter.

i recomend you to put "How to solo soak 2nd O6S Flash Gale stack marker as WAR" on google you will be surprised.

[Noldornir]

I'd make it work like this:

Grants the effect of Living Dead.
When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead. ---> Change in ---> CANNOT BE HEALED WHILE ACTIVE (heals will perform 0 healing on you)
Living Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. ---> Change in ---> While a walking dead you heal back for X% of total damage done (but you are immune to all other forms of heals).

If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. ---> Change in ---> just remove this line
If 100% is not restored, you will be KO'd.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

So:

DRK triggers LD (10 secs)
if his HP does not get <= 1 you waste it

if HP hits 1 or below:
You cant be pushed under 1HP
BUT
You have 10 secs to full heal yourself (else you die)

The X percentage you get (from ALL the damage you deal) should be high enough (150-200%) maybe?

This way the skill would be a DPS race trigger

OR could just heal back for less but let's get rid of the "you die if not 100%"

Timings, procs could be reworked but i'd like to see an "undead" DK sapping life out of his enemies

[Phoenicia]

I'd make it work like this:

Grants the effect of Living Dead.
When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead. ---> Change in ---> CANNOT BE HEALED WHILE ACTIVE (heals will perform 0 healing on you)
Living Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. ---> Change in ---> While a walking dead you heal back for X% of total damage done (but you are immune to all other forms of heals).

If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. ---> Change in ---> just remove this line
If 100% is not restored, you will be KO'd.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

So:

DRK triggers LD (10 secs)
if his HP does not get <= 1 you waste it

if HP hits 1 or below:
You cant be pushed under 1HP
BUT
You have 10 secs to full heal yourself (else you die)

The X percentage you get (from ALL the damage you deal) should be high enough (150-200%) maybe?

This way the skill would be a DPS race trigger

OR could just heal back for less but let's get rid of the "you die if not 100%"

Timings, procs could be reworked but i'd like to see an "undead" DK sapping life out of his enemies

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

[Noldornir]

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

The burden would need to be adjusted not to be too heavy (or work in a different manner) but it should sit on the tank shoulders i believe (DK doing well will be rewarded while now the DK with a better healer is).

Dark not being Death is right, but, during that skill, the DK IS an undead (I suppose the idea is that his mastery of dark arts allows him to cheat death for a time).

You stated this issue tho:

And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from

This is probably the stronger flaw in my suggestion as in this game you don't have an available target sometimes during mechs.

[Duskane]

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

Dont see why it can have some aspects like that especially since soul eater,sole survivor and blood spiller all sounds like a death knight move
Living dead reversing damage would definitely fix it and be much more unique shouldn't have the 0 healing though
Should just be left like that

I dont think the insurance move should have such a down fall with Big CD
PLD you just have to wait for the dance,
And Holmgang benefits out weight the negatives.

[Mortex]

I mean living dead back in Alexander 3 savage whas one of the ways to get a massive dmg lead on the boss just because you could solo tank the band for a short while. The problem with living dead is just with exception of the root and the timer it is active and the ‘Borrowed time’ is effect it’s more or less a 1 hp I need heal situation. The tank still needs to healed with the difference that holm gives you the freedom of how mutch, LD just say 100 % and you rarely have 100 % perfectly, it’s either over heal or not enough that mostly ends in over heal. And the biggest plus is the cd, hg with his 3 mins that in a really long fight (ultimate) you have around 5 times then LD 3 times. I play Drk, pld and war a lot and I still believe holm is busted.

[Cabalabob]

The biggest issue to me has always been that living dead requires another player to know how it works (the healer) and said healer may not even know what living dead is.

Having to rely on someone else to use your skill immediately makes it useless. PLD had the same thing with divine veil so they changed it so PLD could proc it themselves and that’s not nearly as big of a deal as the tanks invulnerability skill!

My suggested change for LD is to make it so that upon using it you can’t be healed anymore for the 10 second duration but if you hit 1hp you instantly recover full health and the status is removed. This would make it somewhat require good timing on the DRKs part or it would actually be a hinderance since if they don’t hit 1hp they’ve just wasted any potential healing they could have had in that time. But it would make it useful even when independent of a healer and a healer who doesn’t know how it works will soon learn as it’s only their own time/mp being wasted trying to cure the DRK rather than risking the DRKs life.

I think this would make it fit the in between hallowed and holmgang vibe it’s going for way better, having a shorter CD than hallowed but a stronger effect than holmgang. (Only useful if you hit 1hp like holmgang but also giving you a full heal if you do).