[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Alyssasidhe]

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

So basically what you're saying is that the game is too much like real life? Because if I was equally proficient with firearms and bladed weapons in real life, and I could use both my hands equally well, there should be nothing keeping me from putting a gun in one hand and a long knife in the other, right?

What exactly is the problem with being able to use all of your abilities in any class? It's not like picking up a sword makes you dumb as a box of rocks and unable to cast magic. If you want to tank, choose a weapon and tank. Just tell your party members.

The MOST ANNOYING THING about ALMOST ALL popular games is the COMPLETE AND UTTER LACK of gaming ettiquette. A lot of people just walk up to you, invite you to party, and when you ask them why THEY WON'T TELL YOU. I literally have found that most people will not take the time to type something out even if they're asking you to trade. They just open a trade window without saying a word to you. It's so bad that it seems that most people don't even realize that you can talk to each other in these games.

If you want to tank, just say "I'm tanking." If the other player doesn't know what tanking is, then it really doesn't matter. Wearing a shield isn't going to make them any smarter. As a matter of fact, it would probably be better if you DIDN'T play with this person, since the fact that they don't know what a tank is probably means you're going to die a lot.

[Augury]

In FFXI a Ranger can equip daggers and /dragoon and use jump. Why couldn't they be allowed too in XIV? :P

Actually, that was the point in that small line of text (that a Ranger should be able to wield a Knife AND Jump effectively). A job "family" system would serve to keep like skills usable and only limit dangerous potentials as opposed to punishing for creativity.

The limitation would be more along the lines that you can't combine Berserker, Dark Knight and Dragoon for some kind of "ultimate offensive", but you can use their like-abilities to promote that kind of play within their families. On the other-hand if someone wants to make a Devout that uses a Darkness command or "enchanted attack" in addition to their Devout, Thaumaturge and Conjurer spells- then they should be given all means to create said effect. The key being that every family would contain jobs similar enough to support one another, but different enough to balance on another in comparison to the other families- and after thinking about it a bit more, there would be a great deal of room for special "universal" skills (like "Wyrmslayer" or other specfics which could only see limited use anyway)

[Nakiamiie]

Best and most complete thread/posts by OP, ever. Hopefully, the developers took some notes and are working on it.
(Have you received your notice for employment from Square-Enix yet?)

EDIT:

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

And it is EXACTLY what I enjoy the most about the armoury system.

[Misha]

Best and most complete thread/posts by OP, ever. Hopefully, the developers took some notes and are working on it.
(Have you received your notice for employment from Square-Enix yet?)

EDIT:

And it is EXACTLY what I enjoy the most about the armoury system.

Definitely my number one thing I hope they DON'T change^^ I enjoy it a ton too... predetermined roles and being forced to play your class a certain way is no fun... Just about every other mmo forces people into specific roles and those like WoW with customization "Talent tree's" are just a farce cause they really aren't that open ended and everyone's just a cookie cutter of everyone else. It's not perfect but it's awesome customization, add it with the new materia system coming and more unique class defining job abilities +other battle changes and it's going to be insanely awesome imo

Fully custom characters in looks, abilities and stats with unique class defining abilities? Yes please!!! How can you hate this?!?!?!*^.^* ... guess some people just love systems doing the work for them and being a cookie cutter of every one else xD

[Daedae]

I was assuming that when advanced jobs were introduced, new weapons would be added to the game in junction. For example, RDM would use a Spellblade, or a Rapier, for SMN they would use Rods, SAM would use Katanas etc. But I am all for a revamped job and battle system, great thread. ^ ^

[Daedae]

@Misha, The cookie cutter mold is present in pretty much every game even XIV. Yes you can choose from any abilities from all jobs, but to be the best at one job in particular, you need specific abilities from other jobs. While sure you can say 'I want to tank on THM without a shield, and only using archer abilities!" that would be stupid. To be a decent THM tank you'd need to use emulate, defender, etc. There is no such thing as a unique combination, cookie cutting is present anyway. Trying to create a character to be unique just for the sake of being unique will wind you up with a silly character who's seriously gimped.

[Misha]

@Misha, The cookie cutter mold is present in pretty much every game even XIV. Yes you can choose from any abilities from all jobs, but to be the best at one job in particular, you need specific abilities from other jobs. While sure you can say 'I want to tank on THM without a shield, and only using archer abilities!" that would be stupid. To be a decent THM tank you'd need to use emulate, defender, etc. There is no such thing as a unique combination, cookie cutting is present anyway. Trying to create a character to be unique just for the sake of being unique will wind you up with a silly character who's seriously gimped.

Was going to give you a justified answer to this but then I just started laughing xD Games are limited in what they can achieve... and as far as 14 is concerned it's quite a bit above the rest in terms of options (When you add the changes incoming). With such limited AP there's more than 30 styles easily I can come up with PER class that fit and work to a great extent in a party set up yet are quite different from another.

Nothing in this world is unique and when I said it obviously meant in the context of upcoming abilities which they wanna add to start defining the job/class/role you're playing. People Will always have cookie cutter builds and people will always follow others even with unlimited options available to the player. You'd be surprised how well things work if you think for yourself and experiment a little, there's already more than enough abilities in the game that are quite different to fill up a couple 50's AP and then some.

Just gotta build your character a bit more horizontal, but the point is options are there. I'll stick to wanting to custom my stats, looks, materia, AND abilities to make my character great in what I need it to be while retaining a more individual appeal then those people who want to be exact copies of one another and can't even figure out how to stat themselves. Luckly there's alot of people out there who play mmo's that do otherwise, it has nothing to do with being unique for the sake of being unique... Anyways /rant off done talking about this, too many variables to explain I doubt the handholders would ever grasp LoL

[Carpe]

Well, no matter what you do, not everybody can be pleased, but people complain most about how each job "lacks uniqueness"- and there isn't a whole lot to make something unique moreso than making it irreversible. On the same note though, trying to take away from a job's overall modularity to give it some kind of "identity" works in the other vain against the "spirit" of such things. Regardless- some things must be given up for the game to be well rounded, and I'd much rather give up the direct approach of Job = Role in favor of Job = Toolbox.

I don' t get your point about permanence creating uniqueness, to me they are unrelated concepts. You can have uniqueness with or without permanence. Something is unique if it is uncommon, unshared, or strongly characteristic of something. The classes in ffxiv do have some unique abilities, abilities that require that class to be equipped to be used, but they are not permanent in the sense that they must always be set on the action bar. There just aren't enough of these abilities, to give these classes a strong sense of uniqueness.

[Carpe]

In your posts you seem to be using "class" and "job" interchangeably, which is something we are treating as different entities. By keeping the armory (class) system intact I don't think we are doing anything detrimental to the classes' "overall modularity", we are just suggesting adding a job system that will contribute to the options one has available to give their characters customization, identity, uniqueness, flavor, etc.

The armory system still works the same way as a "toolbox" of abilities and skills to help determine your approach to combat, but adding a job system on top of that gives you that extra dimension of customization that will give your character more flavor as a whole.

You can think of jobs as role templates, or specializations, but not all jobs would be strongly geared to a particular role, some jobs can be hybrids that can fill in multiple niches on the fly. There can also be some level of customization at the job level so that not all job/class combinations end up performing the same way. Ex. being able to customize DRK to perform as a kind of blood tank rather than a DD.

[Akumu]

Best and most complete thread/posts by OP, ever. Hopefully, the developers took some notes and are working on it.
(Have you received your notice for employment from Square-Enix yet?)

EDIT:

And it is EXACTLY what I enjoy the most about the armoury system.

Graphics, Armory system, and Crafting is the strongest features XIV have and not building on them is the stupidest thing SE could fail to do. The main problem with the Armory system is how it feels incomplete(like so many other features since XIV was rushed).

edit: Considering the Job system is separate from the armory i'm hoping that means we keep our customizations. Maybe even add more like how Carpe's idea allows many weapons for jobs like in XI(except are actually viable unlike XI).