[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[northernsky]

Yeah...good point, but the advance jobs that we're all talking about putting in, I think we would need a more comprehensive list with some good examples of the way the armory system could be used to augment them. Warrior, monk, thief, ranger, dark knight, paladin, ranger, dragoon, samurai, ninja, black mage, white mage, red mage, summoner, beast master.

You'll notice I put summoner and beast master last because I don't think they'll be implemented for quite some while. Now, we've put a lot of thought into drk, pld, rdm, and blm, but what about warrior and monk? To unlock them using the system we discussed earlier would mean they would have to unlock abilities correct? But which abilities could they use to unlock the classes and still be different to the abilities those jobs could unlock on their own is the question. Warrior is a mix of gladiator and marauder, which in my mind would be one of the hardest classes to implement because really what could you give them that marauder and gladiator don't already have? These are the hardball questions that need to be asked before we could really demand anything from the dev team asfar as answers go

This is exactly what I tried to express in my last few posts.

I think the concept itself is flawless, but the ways to implement it still needs a bit of work.There are very good propositions in place, but there are still some gray zones as you just pointed out.

[Anathiel]

The only question I had at the time with this post and it's still not clear to me is whether the poster wanted a) that those stats allocations are permanent for the base weapon class (i-e gaining 1 rank on GLA as a DRK would permanently add 4STR, 1DEX and 3VIT to your GLA, think of the esper bonus system in FFVI), or b)if the stats per rank of a basic weapon class are automatically reallocated when you switch title. In any case, what happens to the stats of your basic weapon class when you have no title equipped?

There are potential balance problems with either possibility. In case (a), permanently allocating stats would greatly alter the possibilities in a system where in theory you play only 1 character. Also, you need to stop everything you do so you don't waste levels with lower bonuses in stats? What about the current rank50?In case (b), several questions remain, i-e, say you can unlock titles at rank 30. But when you have it, can you equip a title on your rank 10 THM? If so, how will it affect your THM stats? Or do you have to wait to rank 30 to equip a title? This also takes its importance considering point (a)

You see, there are several good propositions but I don't think that they all have been optimized. I would like this proposition you cited, but I would prefer more customization by either allocating myself a reduced (compared to now) amount of stat points depending on the way I want to play, or to unlock bonuses in a grid system (HP+3%, STR+2, VIT+4, for example; a PLD grid would have higher occurrence of HP+, enmity+ and VIT+ slots compared to DRK which would have many ATT+ and STR+ slots to unlock so you would have to choose where you want to allocate your points).

This is an example to illustrate that even though many suggestions are in the thread, I think that there still are several possibilities.

That being said I realize that just because I personally am not fully satisfied with the current propositions on how to allocate abilities, traits and stats does not mean that the OP's suggestion is incomplete.

Alright, I'm back from work and would like to adress these issues with what I have in mind. Hopefully we can come up with an answer to the questions as a community giving each other good ideas and constructive criticism. Now, let me adress the two points you made in your first post after mine.

Yes, the bonuses gained from leveling your title to the next tier would always be present depending on which class you had equipped (not a permanent bonus though), however the stat bonuses would depend on the rank of the class equipped and type of class equipped (lol, I think I just repeated myself). Now, you would have to put in static stat allocation for the base classes and get rid of the player allocated points. Right now stats are broken and I don't think by making it static you would be hurting anything.

Now, assuming stat allocation is static and determined by the developers it's therefore not a balancing issue. the stats for a r50 gladiator would be static and the bonuses gained from having an advanced job would just augment them. when you switched from r50 gladiator to r10 thaumaturge, your actual stats come from the weapon spec and the bonuses are just gained from the title. and remember the stat bonuses gained from your title would vary depending on the weapon spec equipped, the bonuses you get from dark knight would be different for gladiator than for thaumaturge, but it would indeed differ from r50 to r10 unless you were a master dark knight. the master dark knight high point bonuses would carry over to a low class weapon spec. this is to reward high level players trying to level low ranking specializations, not to punish low level people. to be honest this is the same as new players in ff:xi having no subjob and veteran players having a subjob no matter what level their main was.

Going on to my final part of this response, the stat bonuses gained from your title could indeed be changed using the "sphere grid" system to add different percentages to the bonuses your title gives to any given stat. but I think this should be something of a either/or choice. you either gain the percentages to stats, bonus effects to spells, increased weapon skill dmg, or maybe a passive trait. active abilities and title specific spells will always be given at the advancement to next tier no matter what.

[Anathiel]

This is exactly what I tried to express in my last few posts.

I think the concept itself is flawless, but the ways to implement it still needs a bit of work.There are very good propositions in place, but there are still some gray zones as you just pointed out.

Right, and I'll be honest I stopped playing the game in november BUT I will try and study a little more about the current classes. I didn't say that being able to come up with something for warrior would be impossible, just a little more difficult given what we have to work with. Now what comes to mind first is the adjustment of bonuses given by titles and making warrior the generic title I was referring to earlier. The bonuses given by warrior could be those that strengthen the skills and abilities already given to the base weapon spec's. the sphere grid for warrior could also give percentage bonuses to the stats static to the base DoW classes. now as far as DoM goes that's actually an easier fix and I believe all DoM issues have been adressed earlier in the thread.

[northernsky]

Alright, I'm back from work and would like to adress these issues with what I have in mind. Hopefully we can come up with an answer to the questions as a community giving each other good ideas and constructive criticism. Now, let me adress the two points you made in your first post after mine.

Yes, the bonuses gained from leveling your title to the next tier would always be present depending on which class you had equipped (not a permanent bonus though), however the stat bonuses would depend on the rank of the class equipped and type of class equipped (lol, I think I just repeated myself). Now, you would have to put in static stat allocation for the base classes and get rid of the player allocated points. Right now stats are broken and I don't think by making it static you would be hurting anything.

Now, assuming stat allocation is static and determined by the developers it's therefore not a balancing issue. the stats for a r50 gladiator would be static and the bonuses gained from having an advanced job would just augment them. when you switched from r50 gladiator to r10 thaumaturge, your actual stats come from the weapon spec and the bonuses are just gained from the title. and remember the stat bonuses gained from your title would vary depending on the weapon spec equipped, the bonuses you get from dark knight would be different for gladiator than for thaumaturge, but it would indeed differ from r50 to r10 unless you were a master dark knight. the master dark knight high point bonuses would carry over to a low class weapon spec. this is to reward high level players trying to level low ranking specializations, not to punish low level people. to be honest this is the same as new players in ff:xi having no subjob and veteran players having a subjob no matter what level their main was.

Going on to my final part of this response, the stat bonuses gained from your title could indeed be changed using the "sphere grid" system to add different percentages to the bonuses your title gives to any given stat. but I think this should be something of a either/or choice. you either gain the percentages to stats, bonus effects to spells, increased weapon skill dmg, or maybe a passive trait. active abilities and title specific spells will always be given at the advancement to next tier no matter what.

Ok I needed to read this a few times but I think I understand. So you add some of your own ideas and some discussed in the thread to the example that you brought in the previous page.

From what I understand, and I think that is the main issue that prevented me from understanding your points before, there would basically be no progression (in terms of stats, abilities) between 2 title tiers, as there is no progression in your stats between 2 ranks or levels right now. So in this situation, the word "tier" would be just another way to say rank or level? After reaching tier 2, you get a bunch of stats bonuses and abilities that remain the same until the next tier?

I have to say, this would be a huge improvement over the current system. Personally tho, I would prefer even more customization and progression in between the tiers, that's where I came from with a grid-like system (yeah I know I'm becoming annoying with the grids lol, btw they don't have to be "sphere" grids).

Say you have one grid per title per tier. For example, you have a Dragoon tier 1 grid, dragoon tier 2, dragoon tier 3... If you play Paladin, you have tier 1, 2, 3 paladin etc. You need to meet certain requirements (weapon spec rank, NM fight, number of slots unlocked in the grid) to advance to the next tier and within each tier, you can only earn enough points to unlock a percentage of the slots in that grid.

For Dragoon tier 1 grid, "Jump" is your starting ability then you choose your path toward either str+, enmity-, hp+ path and strong weapon skills or rather crowd-control abilities, hate shed/transfer, enfeebling path, depending on the strength and weaknesses of your weapon spec. Once you meet the requirements to unlock tier 2 grid for dragoon, you keep all your tier 1 bonuses, plus you start to unlock tier 2 bonuses in a whole new grid, which starting point is "Call Wyvern".

So this allows you more customization and progression between tiers.

However at this point it's very much a matter of personal preferences.

I think that the system you propose could actually be easier to implement. But you say that the bonuses are different according to your weapon spec... Don't you think it would be complicated to attribute (and balance) different bonuses to all the possible combinations of weaponspec/title? I see where you're coming from though and I like the idea I just see difficulties in the process of balancing the stats for say, 8 weapon specs x 12 titles x 5 tiers possibilities.

Thanks for replying to my previous posts

[Anathiel]

well I know it's difficult but it's a multi million dollar game, the ability to have different stats between weapon classes is a must that will allow alot of different customization without completely getting rid of the armory system. and yes what you're thinking of with the grid system at tier leveling is exactly what I'm saying should be implemented (with of course, the option of "paying" for a grid reset).

I for example want to play a dark knight tank, something that might've been done in ff:xi but for stat differences couldn't, I would level the proper classesd to obtain the necessary spells/abilities to unlock dark knight, I do the title quest and unlock it. I equip dark knight as my title, and gladiator as my weapon specialization. Now lets say I'm a rank 20 gladiator, if the stats were static I can assume (just for examples sake) my STR to be 30, VIT be 40, DEX be 30, MND 20, INT 20 or what have you. Now I equip my dark knight title, it grants a +1 STR/VIT and lets say for every level of gladiator I have equipped so now I have STR 50 VIT 60 DEX 30 MND 20 INT 20. as I progress my dark knight title the +1 str/vit becomes +5str/vit +3 dex for every level of gladiator I have, so as a rank20 gladiator I now have 130 STR VIT 140 DEX 90. now that is VERY VERY rough example of how the system could work, please don't take it at face value. you could see the clear benefits of getting an advanced job and how it might be used to augment any base weapon class. (marauder being very heavy on str, pugulist being a balance of str/dex etc etc)

Then again I might not choose to take those stat bonuses as my title bonus and instead opt for something along the lines of a passive ability that makes my atk buffs last longer, or my absorbs drain massive amounts of stat you see? it's pick and choose and definitely allows for greater customization of the job you want to play.

And really balancing the different titles and tiers it's all done with percentages, it would be difficult I'm sure but not impossible, it only took a day for the community to come up with that leveling scheme. the best way to possibly do it is to give a percentage type bonus, tier 1 giving you 1% (for dark knight lol, I use it for all my examples because thats the class I love to play) for str/vit with a gladiator spec, but giving you a 2% str bonus with marauder spec. Percentages are easiest to implement and the easiest to balance out after releasing. nerf's or boosts would happen after implementation I'm sure, but that just goes with the territory of making an MMO.

[northernsky]

well I know it's difficult but it's a multi million dollar game, the ability to have different stats between weapon classes is a must that will allow alot of different customization without completely getting rid of the armory system. and yes what you're thinking of with the grid system at tier leveling is exactly what I'm saying should be implemented (with of course, the option of "paying" for a grid reset).

I for example want to play a dark knight tank, something that might've been done in ff:xi but for stat differences couldn't, I would level the proper classesd to obtain the necessary spells/abilities to unlock dark knight, I do the title quest and unlock it. I equip dark knight as my title, and gladiator as my weapon specialization. Now lets say I'm a rank 20 gladiator, if the stats were static I can assume (just for examples sake) my STR to be 30, VIT be 40, DEX be 30, MND 20, INT 20 or what have you. Now I equip my dark knight title, it grants a +1 STR/VIT and lets say for every level of gladiator I have equipped so now I have STR 50 VIT 60 DEX 30 MND 20 INT 20. as I progress my dark knight title the +1 str/vit becomes +5str/vit +3 dex for every level of gladiator I have, so as a rank20 gladiator I now have 130 STR VIT 140 DEX 90. now that is VERY VERY rough example of how the system could work, please don't take it at face value. you could see the clear benefits of getting an advanced job and how it might be used to augment any base weapon class. (marauder being very heavy on str, pugulist being a balance of str/dex etc etc)

Then again I might not choose to take those stat bonuses as my title bonus and instead opt for something along the lines of a passive ability that makes my atk buffs last longer, or my absorbs drain massive amounts of stat you see? it's pick and choose and definitely allows for greater customization of the job you want to play.

And really balancing the different titles and tiers it's all done with percentages, it would be difficult I'm sure but not impossible, it only took a day for the community to come up with that leveling scheme. the best way to possibly do it is to give a percentage type bonus, tier 1 giving you 1% (for dark knight lol, I use it for all my examples because thats the class I love to play) for str/vit with a gladiator spec, but giving you a 2% str bonus with marauder spec. Percentages are easiest to implement and the easiest to balance out after releasing. nerf's or boosts would happen after implementation I'm sure, but that just goes with the territory of making an MMO.

Yup it's becoming clearer.

Considering the grid system I propose, I would like to be able to reallocate my points to different slots at any time. If for one fight I want to go full attack and damage then I could.

I think we are both kind of saying the same thing in the essence behind the mechanics. The point being that bonuses could be different depending on your weapon spec and thus that your role and style of play could also be very different with the same title.

Working with % bonuses is definitely a much better way to work and would simplify a lot the system. No point in granting GLA a +2STR +1VIT bonus per rank with DRK title instead of +3STR and +1DEX to your MRD with the same title. If your MRD already has higher base STR and lower base VIT, the same % bonus granted by the DRK title would actually be different depending on your weapon spec.

Finally I would definitely like to be able to pick and choose my bonuses in one way or another. It opens so much more possibilities and unique game play.

[Anathiel]

Yup it's becoming clearer.

Considering the grid system I propose, I would like to be able to reallocate my points to different slots at any time. If for one fight I want to go full attack and damage then I could.

I think we are both kind of saying the same thing in the essence behind the mechanics. The point being that bonuses could be different depending on your weapon spec and thus that your role and style of play could also be very different with the same title.

Working with % bonuses is definitely a much better way to work and would simplify a lot the system. No point in granting GLA a +2STR +1VIT bonus per rank with DRK title instead of +3STR and +1DEX to your MRD with the same title. If your MRD already has higher base STR and lower base VIT, the same % bonus granted by the DRK title would actually be different depending on your weapon spec.

Finally I would definitely like to be able to pick and choose my bonuses in one way or another. It opens so much more possibilities and unique game play.

Right, cairdeas and I actually got real indepth with choosing your bonuses at tier advancement if you want to read back that far lol. Really the only issue in my mind is the balancing between the DoW classes, I mean that warrior, monk, dragoon all only get abilities...you wouldn't really be able to compound abilities like you could for paladin and dark knight. Maybe you guys could think of some ideas for balancing? I'm sure you must have some ideas for dragoon.

[Kirith]

...but what about warrior and monk? [...] But which abilities could they use to unlock the classes and still be different to the abilities those jobs could unlock on their own is the question. Warrior is a mix of gladiator and marauder, which in my mind would be one of the hardest classes to implement because really what could you give them that marauder and gladiator don't already have?

I think some assume that "weapon specialization" and "title" are completely different things, but they are both substantially just labels for looks and skills of a character. Titles just allow to give more unique traits to classes.

So, when you say "What do we give WAR that GLD or MRD don't have?" you are saying "what fighting skills we give to a fighter that a sword fighter and an axe fighter don't have?"
It's redundant. I believe in this system certain titles are better scrapped, like WAR.
Make melee weapon specialists have more unique titles, such as PLD, DRK, DRG... and make more new titles if necessary. There's no reason to cling to FFXI jobs precisely.
In the case of "WAR" it is already diluted in the other classes.

Melee classes are similar in their gameplay to FFXI melee obs. You go and maul the enemy with your weapon of choice.
Mages however are much more different. If you make a "BLM" you won't be redundant with the two base classes, however if you make a WAR title, you will.

It was already generic in FFXI, it would be simply unnecessary in FFXIV. GLD and MRD are your WAR. PUG is your MNK.

That said, if you all really like WAR as title, a warrior is "Someone adept at warfare combat" which means a fighter skilled at fighting in group against other groups. Give it AoE melee buffs/debuffs like "Warcry" from FFXI, dual wield, enmity bonuses, crowd control skills that allow parties to fight multiple monsters (like long lasting AoE stun)... which i don't think is that difficult to do.

Also, remember the system OP proposed is good because it's simple. Grids and other madness should be kept for future expansions.

[Anathiel]

Grids were just a method to choose your own bonuses when leveling your title. And warrior was just an example, and I was just concerned about the people who don't really want to have to take the advanced jobs, warrior was a generic term so gladiator and marauder would have advanced options that would augment their current play style.

[northernsky]

I think some assume that "weapon specialization" and "title" are completely different things, but they are both substantially just labels for looks and skills of a character. Titles just allow to give more unique traits to classes.

So, when you say "What do we give WAR that GLD or MRD don't have?" you are saying "what fighting skills we give to a fighter that a sword fighter and an axe fighter don't have?"
It's redundant. I believe in this system certain titles are better scrapped, like WAR.
Make melee weapon specialists have more unique titles, such as PLD, DRK, DRG... and make more new titles if necessary. There's no reason to cling to FFXI jobs precisely.
In the case of "WAR" it is already diluted in the other classes.

Melee classes are similar in their gameplay to FFXI melee obs. You go and maul the enemy with your weapon of choice.
Mages however are much more different. If you make a "BLM" you won't be redundant with the two base classes, however if you make a WAR title, you will.

It was already generic in FFXI, it would be simply unnecessary in FFXIV. GLD and MRD are your WAR. PUG is your MNK.

That said, if you all really like WAR as title, a warrior is "Someone adept at warfare combat" which means a fighter skilled at fighting in group against other groups. Give it AoE melee buffs/debuffs like "Warcry" from FFXI, dual wield, enmity bonuses, crowd control skills that allow parties to fight multiple monsters (like long lasting AoE stun)... which i don't think is that difficult to do.

Also, remember the system OP proposed is good because it's simple. Grids and other madness should be kept for future expansions.

Very well said. It's easy to use previous games as comparisons but we don't actually need to recreate all this stuff. There are well enough possible jobs to choose from in order to avoid redundancy and maybe jobs like warrior could just be put aside.

Also I used the grid as an example because it has been done in the past and allows customization. It could be anything else, I just wish that there would be a way that a player who plays as DRG/LNC is different from another DRG/LNC beside gear. I was thinking of something similar to the merit points system but with a visual representation. This was actually simple.