[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Reiku]

Refer to my previous post.

Example (Extreme simplification)

Gladiator Class
As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +4pts, Dexterity +1pts, Vitality by 3pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +2pts, Dexterity +2pt, Vitality by 4pts.


Marauder Class
As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +5pts, Dexterity +2pts, Vitality by 1pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +3pts, Dexterity +3pt, Vitality by 3pts.

So each title would dictate where your stats gained from increasing weapon rank would be allocated.


This of course would vary with each weapon class and title combo. As a Dark Knight Pugalist you'd get maybe slightly more DEX and less STR than you would if you went with Gladiator or Marauder. BUT if you did decide to go gladiator for sword play, you wouldn't get flooded with unecessary vitality as if you would if you were a Paladin (Where you'd want more Vitality).

Is this more clear?

[Anathiel]

Refer to my previous post.

Example (Extreme simplification)

Gladiator Class
As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +4pts, Dexterity +1pts, Vitality by 3pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +2pts, Dexterity +2pt, Vitality by 4pts.


Marauder Class
As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +5pts, Dexterity +2pts, Vitality by 1pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +3pts, Dexterity +3pt, Vitality by 3pts.

So each title would dictate where your stats gained from increasing weapon rank would be allocated.


This of course would vary with each weapon class and title combo. As a Dark Knight Pugalist you'd get maybe slightly more DEX and less STR than you would if you went with Gladiator or Marauder. BUT if you did decide to go gladiator for sword play, you wouldn't get flooded with unecessary vitality as if you would if you were a Paladin (Where you'd want more Vitality).

Is this more clear?

That is much more clear and an amazing way of doing it. Not only does it help prevent some of the cookie cutter builds you might end up see'ing it would compliment certain jobs not having to be locked into any one style of play. I "liked" it, as in pushed the like button lol. Honestly that would just be great, for building your base stats. And hopefully could be enhanced using a type of chosen stat bonus picked when leveling up to the next tier of your title.

[Anathiel]

Refer to my previous post.

Example (Extreme simplification)

Gladiator Class
As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +4pts, Dexterity +1pts, Vitality by 3pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +2pts, Dexterity +2pt, Vitality by 4pts.


Marauder Class
As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +5pts, Dexterity +2pts, Vitality by 1pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +3pts, Dexterity +3pt, Vitality by 3pts.

So each title would dictate where your stats gained from increasing weapon rank would be allocated.


This of course would vary with each weapon class and title combo. As a Dark Knight Pugalist you'd get maybe slightly more DEX and less STR than you would if you went with Gladiator or Marauder. BUT if you did decide to go gladiator for sword play, you wouldn't get flooded with unecessary vitality as if you would if you were a Paladin (Where you'd want more Vitality).

Is this more clear?

Found it, but to expand on it I think the stat bonuses should be much much smaller when you first unlock your title and gain more points as you reach the next tier of your title. Drk only giving 1 point str 1 point vit per gld rank as a novice drk but as a master drk you get 5 str 4 vit 3 dex per rank you see?

[northernsky]

Found it, but to expand on it I think the stat bonuses should be much much smaller when you first unlock your title and gain more points as you reach the next tier of your title. Drk only giving 1 point str 1 point vit per gld rank as a novice drk but as a master drk you get 5 str 4 vit 3 dex per rank you see?

Yes I remember this post, thanks. So it's a nice way to allocate stats and there are some other posts on traits, abilities gained with the progression of the title.

The only question I had at the time with this post and it's still not clear to me is whether the poster wanted a) that those stats allocations are permanent for the base weapon class (i-e gaining 1 rank on GLA as a DRK would permanently add 4STR, 1DEX and 3VIT to your GLA, think of the esper bonus system in FFVI), or b)if the stats per rank of a basic weapon class are automatically reallocated when you switch title. In any case, what happens to the stats of your basic weapon class when you have no title equipped?

There are potential balance problems with either possibility. In case (a), permanently allocating stats would greatly alter the possibilities in a system where in theory you play only 1 character. Also, you need to stop everything you do so you don't waste levels with lower bonuses in stats? What about the current rank50?In case (b), several questions remain, i-e, say you can unlock titles at rank 30. But when you have it, can you equip a title on your rank 10 THM? If so, how will it affect your THM stats? Or do you have to wait to rank 30 to equip a title? This also takes its importance considering point (a)

You see, there are several good propositions but I don't think that they all have been optimized. I would like this proposition you cited, but I would prefer more customization by either allocating myself a reduced (compared to now) amount of stat points depending on the way I want to play, or to unlock bonuses in a grid system (HP+3%, STR+2, VIT+4, for example; a PLD grid would have higher occurrence of HP+, enmity+ and VIT+ slots compared to DRK which would have many ATT+ and STR+ slots to unlock so you would have to choose where you want to allocate your points).

This is an example to illustrate that even though many suggestions are in the thread, I think that there still are several possibilities.

That being said I realize that just because I personally am not fully satisfied with the current propositions on how to allocate abilities, traits and stats does not mean that the OP's suggestion is incomplete.

[Anathiel]

The only question I had at the time with this post and it's still not clear to me is whether the poster wanted a) that those stats allocations are permanent for the base weapon class (i-e gaining 1 rank on GLA as a DRK would permanently add 4STR, 1DEX and 3VIT to your GLA, think of the esper bonus system in FFVI), or b)if the stats per rank of a basic weapon class are automatically reallocated when you switch title. In any case, what happens to the stats of your basic weapon class when you have no title equipped?

There are potential balance problems with either possibility. In case (a), permanently allocating stats would greatly alter the possibilities in a system where in theory you play only 1 character. Also, you need to stop everything you do so you don't waste levels with lower bonuses in stats? What about the current rank50?In case (b), several questions remain, i-e, say you can unlock titles at rank 30. But when you have it, can you equip a title on your rank 10 THM? If so, how will it affect your THM stats? Or do you have to wait to rank 30 to equip a title? This also takes its importance considering point (a)

You see, there are several good propositions but I don't think that they all have been optimized. I would like this proposition you cited, but I would prefer more customization by either allocating myself a reduced (compared to now) amount of stat points depending on the way I want to play, or to unlock bonuses in a grid system (HP+3%, STR+2, VIT+4, for example; a PLD grid would have higher occurrence of HP+, enmity+ and VIT+ slots compared to DRK which would have many ATT+ and STR+ slots to unlock so you would have to choose where you want to allocate your points).

This is an example to illustrate that even though many suggestions are in the thread, I think that there still are several possibilities.

That being said I realize that just because I personally am not fully satisfied with the current propositions on how to allocate abilities, traits and stats does not mean that the OP's suggestion is incomplete.

Alright, I'm back from work and would like to adress these issues with what I have in mind. Hopefully we can come up with an answer to the questions as a community giving each other good ideas and constructive criticism. Now, let me adress the two points you made in your first post after mine.

Yes, the bonuses gained from leveling your title to the next tier would always be present depending on which class you had equipped (not a permanent bonus though), however the stat bonuses would depend on the rank of the class equipped and type of class equipped (lol, I think I just repeated myself). Now, you would have to put in static stat allocation for the base classes and get rid of the player allocated points. Right now stats are broken and I don't think by making it static you would be hurting anything.

Now, assuming stat allocation is static and determined by the developers it's therefore not a balancing issue. the stats for a r50 gladiator would be static and the bonuses gained from having an advanced job would just augment them. when you switched from r50 gladiator to r10 thaumaturge, your actual stats come from the weapon spec and the bonuses are just gained from the title. and remember the stat bonuses gained from your title would vary depending on the weapon spec equipped, the bonuses you get from dark knight would be different for gladiator than for thaumaturge, but it would indeed differ from r50 to r10 unless you were a master dark knight. the master dark knight high point bonuses would carry over to a low class weapon spec. this is to reward high level players trying to level low ranking specializations, not to punish low level people. to be honest this is the same as new players in ff:xi having no subjob and veteran players having a subjob no matter what level their main was.

Going on to my final part of this response, the stat bonuses gained from your title could indeed be changed using the "sphere grid" system to add different percentages to the bonuses your title gives to any given stat. but I think this should be something of a either/or choice. you either gain the percentages to stats, bonus effects to spells, increased weapon skill dmg, or maybe a passive trait. active abilities and title specific spells will always be given at the advancement to next tier no matter what.

[northernsky]

Alright, I'm back from work and would like to adress these issues with what I have in mind. Hopefully we can come up with an answer to the questions as a community giving each other good ideas and constructive criticism. Now, let me adress the two points you made in your first post after mine.

Yes, the bonuses gained from leveling your title to the next tier would always be present depending on which class you had equipped (not a permanent bonus though), however the stat bonuses would depend on the rank of the class equipped and type of class equipped (lol, I think I just repeated myself). Now, you would have to put in static stat allocation for the base classes and get rid of the player allocated points. Right now stats are broken and I don't think by making it static you would be hurting anything.

Now, assuming stat allocation is static and determined by the developers it's therefore not a balancing issue. the stats for a r50 gladiator would be static and the bonuses gained from having an advanced job would just augment them. when you switched from r50 gladiator to r10 thaumaturge, your actual stats come from the weapon spec and the bonuses are just gained from the title. and remember the stat bonuses gained from your title would vary depending on the weapon spec equipped, the bonuses you get from dark knight would be different for gladiator than for thaumaturge, but it would indeed differ from r50 to r10 unless you were a master dark knight. the master dark knight high point bonuses would carry over to a low class weapon spec. this is to reward high level players trying to level low ranking specializations, not to punish low level people. to be honest this is the same as new players in ff:xi having no subjob and veteran players having a subjob no matter what level their main was.

Going on to my final part of this response, the stat bonuses gained from your title could indeed be changed using the "sphere grid" system to add different percentages to the bonuses your title gives to any given stat. but I think this should be something of a either/or choice. you either gain the percentages to stats, bonus effects to spells, increased weapon skill dmg, or maybe a passive trait. active abilities and title specific spells will always be given at the advancement to next tier no matter what.

Ok I needed to read this a few times but I think I understand. So you add some of your own ideas and some discussed in the thread to the example that you brought in the previous page.

From what I understand, and I think that is the main issue that prevented me from understanding your points before, there would basically be no progression (in terms of stats, abilities) between 2 title tiers, as there is no progression in your stats between 2 ranks or levels right now. So in this situation, the word "tier" would be just another way to say rank or level? After reaching tier 2, you get a bunch of stats bonuses and abilities that remain the same until the next tier?

I have to say, this would be a huge improvement over the current system. Personally tho, I would prefer even more customization and progression in between the tiers, that's where I came from with a grid-like system (yeah I know I'm becoming annoying with the grids lol, btw they don't have to be "sphere" grids).

Say you have one grid per title per tier. For example, you have a Dragoon tier 1 grid, dragoon tier 2, dragoon tier 3... If you play Paladin, you have tier 1, 2, 3 paladin etc. You need to meet certain requirements (weapon spec rank, NM fight, number of slots unlocked in the grid) to advance to the next tier and within each tier, you can only earn enough points to unlock a percentage of the slots in that grid.

For Dragoon tier 1 grid, "Jump" is your starting ability then you choose your path toward either str+, enmity-, hp+ path and strong weapon skills or rather crowd-control abilities, hate shed/transfer, enfeebling path, depending on the strength and weaknesses of your weapon spec. Once you meet the requirements to unlock tier 2 grid for dragoon, you keep all your tier 1 bonuses, plus you start to unlock tier 2 bonuses in a whole new grid, which starting point is "Call Wyvern".

So this allows you more customization and progression between tiers.

However at this point it's very much a matter of personal preferences.

I think that the system you propose could actually be easier to implement. But you say that the bonuses are different according to your weapon spec... Don't you think it would be complicated to attribute (and balance) different bonuses to all the possible combinations of weaponspec/title? I see where you're coming from though and I like the idea I just see difficulties in the process of balancing the stats for say, 8 weapon specs x 12 titles x 5 tiers possibilities.

Thanks for replying to my previous posts