[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[northernsky]

But if the traits don't change, you run into the cookie cutter builds. If traits change depends on sub, you could keep the armoury system to switch from DD to tank on the fly. Now, if you have to customize traits yourself it would be sorta annoying to have to recustomize yourself every time you changed play styles.

Also, traits for titles could include spells (albeit minor ones) that could be kept regardless of assigned class. Drk geting absorbs. Blm getting ele spells. It could work certainly for minor class abilities too, thief getting pug's steal, etc. Etc.

This one could be argued for a long time... I really don't know honestly, I think there is still a lot of customization left with the choice of your sub.

GLA already has a large defense and HP bonus over MRD for example. And I do think that choosing your title should at least partly determine your role. I think that the big problem with the current system is the lack of class definition. By choosing DRK, you should not only choose the look of your chararacter, you should also select some intrinsic characteristics.

But that's my personal point of view, I see where you're going, but try to imagine the complexity of the system if any combination of title/basic class has different attributes...

edit: I meant "if the titles characteristics are different for every title/basic class combination"

[Anathiel]

This one could be argued for a long time... I really don't know honestly, I think there is still a lot of customization left with the choice of your sub.

GLA already has a large defense and HP bonus over MRD for example. And I do think that choosing your title should at least partly determine your role. I think that the big problem with the current system is the lack of class definition. By choosing DRK, you should not only choose the look of your chararacter, you should also select some intrinsic characteristics.

But that's my personal point of view, I see where you're going, but try to imagine the complexity of the system if any combination of title/basic class has different attributes...

Yeah I'm realizing that, so choosing traits upon reaching the next tier of title. Now should it be a spec tree type of deal? Or should it be an NPC trainer of sorts? Ahhh even better, doing a quest to reach the next tier then choosing the title bonuses upon completion. I think abilities should be constant though and passive traits and "minor" abilities be chosen. Leaving the major abilities constant gives you the title jobs' flavor but still allows you to customize minor abilities to accomendate your play style. Let's say I reach journeyman drk and I will no matter what geet souleater, but do I choose an attack bonus, a stun type ability, or a boost to hp.

The way to fix class uniqueness is to get rid of interchangable skills. Only make interchangable skills part of the title and even then only certain spells/abilities could be selected. Drk shouldn't have cure, but if you leveled thau you would have drain and be to take that drain no matter what sub class you had equipped.

[northernsky]

Yeah I'm realizing that, so choosing traits upon reaching the next tier of title. Now should it be a spec tree type of deal? Or should it be an NPC trainer of sorts? Ahhh even better, doing a quest to reach the next tier then choosing the title bonuses upon completion. I think abilities should be constant though and passive traits and "minor" abilities be chosen. Leaving the major abilities constant gives you the title jobs' flavor but still allows you to customize minor abilities to accomendate your play style. Let's say I reach journeyman drk and I will no matter what geet souleater, but do I choose an attack bonus, a stun type ability, or a boost to hp.

The way to fix class uniqueness is to get rid of interchangable skills. Only make interchangable skills part of the title and even then only certain spells/abilities could be selected. Drk shouldn't have cure, but if you leveled thau you would have drain and be to take that drain no matter what sub class you had equipped.

I like that a lot. I think that the talent tree proposed in another thread would be a great way to implement the title system. Personally, I would prefer to have the possibility to change the path I chose at any time.

Now, to make sure that you cannot obtain all the abilities from this tree and destroy customization, you could split it into several levels that you unlock when you advance to a further tier, i-e Journeyman in your example. For each level of the tree, you can only obtain enough points to unlock, say, 50% of the abilities/traits. Ideally you could decide to cancel an ability and reallocate the associated points to another ability.

Upon reaching the journeyman status, you have access to a new level of skills/abilities chart to choose from, and you automatically gain "souleater" as the starting point in this new category. Starting from here you decide in which direction of the chart you wish to spend the points that you have earned for that tier.

[Anathiel]

This system would require less manipulation of the current armoury system then most of the other suggetions people have made. And would satisfy the players who actually enjoy the current armoury system.

My current idea would keep the armoury system but get rid of interchangable skills/spells on the class level but not the title level. Now you could still be a drk/conj but your cures will take a hit in effectiveness but not your elemental spells. Until you could unlock and keep those elemental spells. Now dpending on your class equipped determines the effectiveness of the spells/abilities equipped.

I like that a lot. I think that the talent tree proposed in another thread would be a great way to implement the title system.

Now, to make sure that you cannot obtain all the abilities from this tree and destroy customization, you could split it into several levels that you unlock when you advance to a further tier, i-e Journeyman in your example. For each level of the tree, you can only obtain enough points to unlock, say, 50% of the abilities/traits.

Upon reaching the journeyman status, you have access to a new level of skills/abilities chart to choose from, and you automatically gain "souleater" as the starting point in this new category. Starting from here you decide in which direction of the chart you wish to spend the points that you have earned for that tier.

The only issue I see arising with only being able to unlock 50% of a given tree is that we need to determine which bonuses would fit the title. Do we go off of old final fantasy stereotypes (drk can't tank thus it would have no tanking abilities to unlock)? Or do we make the talents generic for melee and mage classes? Now, I hate to do this but we could use the spec tree system and in the end if its not implemented well, it could hurt us and not help us. Also I really don't want the idea of "paths" for the specializations inherent to any title, but I'm out of ideas how we could do it while still retaining some degree of originality.

[northernsky]

The only issue I see arising with only being able to unlock 50% of a given tree is that we need to determine which bonuses would fit the title. Do we go off of old final fantasy stereotypes (drk can't tank thus it would have no tanking abilities to unlock)? Or do we make the talents generic for melee and mage classes? Now, I hate to do this but we could use the spec tree system and in the end if its not implemented well, it could hurt us and not help us. Also I really don't want the idea of "paths" for the specializations inherent to any title, but I'm out of ideas how we could do it while still retaining some degree of originality.

Well the way I see it, each title would have its own "tree" or "chart". It could start up very simple and be expanded in further updates/expansions.

If you play a DRK/GLA, you already have the tanking abilities from your GLA. Then you could focus in your specialization toward HP+ and enmity bonuses instead of damage and debuff, for example.
But you would still select those skills in a DRK specific set of skills, which overall will not be as rich in tanking ability as the PLD set of skills for example.

[Anathiel]

Well the way I see it, each title would have its own "tree" or "chart". It could start up very simple and be expanded in further updates/expansions.

If you play a DRK/GLA, you already have the tanking abilities from your GLA. Then you could focus in your specialization toward HP+ and enmity bonuses instead of damage and debuff, for example.
But you would still select those skills in a DRK specific set of skills, which overall will not be as rich in tanking ability as the PLD set of skills for example.

Right, but how could we determine that drk would get tanking title bonuses? I guess there's really nothing I could do about it, but hope for it. It would make sense DD, tank, enfeebling. For paladin DD, tank, buffing/backup healing. Now jobs like dragoon and thief might get tricky, because there's not a lot of room for different play styles.

[Cairdeas]

DRK actually were very good tanks in past FF's. Especially Tactics: War of the Lion where you could let them take damage then use their abilities to suck all of it back killing the enemy who attacked them.

[northernsky]

Right, but how could we determine that drk would get tanking title bonuses? I guess there's really nothing I could do about it, but hope for it. It would make sense DD, tank, enfeebling. For paladin DD, tank, buffing/backup healing. Now jobs like dragoon and thief might get tricky, because there's not a lot of room for different play styles.

Yeah I have to admit that it could be hard to make DRK a very good tank the way I present things.
Unless they open up customization so much that you could do anything you want with your specialization. But personally I really don't want that.

One thing I could see is focusing on the few HP+, enmity+ bonuses that the DRK specialization would have to offer, and to focus on healing and damage mitigation through drain and absorbs line of spells to compensate higher damage taken like Cairdeas pointed out.

[Anathiel]

Well, I guess ill just keep my fingers crossed. You know, the title bonuses are just that: bonuses. If subbing glad could make it a tank then my play style would determine if it was a good idea, not attribute bonuses. Now, instead of using a "talent tree" for title specialization we could use the sphere grid system with each new tier unlocking new areas of the grid. It allows for customization and if you wanted, specialization.

[Chanse]

Luv this thread, was about to write one myself but probably couldn't do it better than this. I like all of your ideas! Gonna keep checking back for more...