UPSKIRTS

[Iscah]

Um...Does anyone really have sort of an issue with an upskirt view of their characters like that?! Is there anyone actually caring about it for anything more than comedic/role playing purpose?!

I know that this thread did start as more "for fun" thing...but there are posts that suggest some degree of seriousness already...

Yes, I would care. My character isn't me but she's representing me, and interacting with other 'real' people, and that's not something I would be okay with in the real world so I don't feel that it is okay here either. Basic social interaction rules should still be in place.

(And this is why I'm extra frustrated by the assortment of skirts that don't come with anything under them, and relic gear that basically gives us fancy underwear when male characters get pants. Not only do I not want to wear those things, but it feels like we're being set up for this.)

[kikix12]

My character isn't me but she's representing me, and interacting with other 'real' people, and that's not something I would be okay with in the real world so I don't feel that it is okay here either. Basic social interaction rules should still be in place.

I do not mean any offense, but you are in the group of "overreacting" people that are not considered for things like age ratings, gauging scale of harassment and the sort.

I most certainly can understand people not wanting others to look up their clothes, whatever they have underneath them. If they are made to cover, they are supposed to cover. However these social norms...just do not exist in a video game.
1) The avatar is not you. When looking up a skirt of a character, it is not looking up your skirt. Might you feel irritated still? Certainly. But it is "irritating" at most, not any sort of infraction in terms of social norms.
2) The games design makes it simply impossible to avoid. As I said, the characters have no "body". Think of them as ghosts that only materialize a little part at a time in order to attack/heal. This is for obvious reason of preventing people from getting stuck on each other, but it also invalidates anything based on the existence of that body. That means that passing through underneath a persons skirt is "a normal thing", because it was by design.
You know, it works like with different cultures. In one culture showing thumbs up to a taxi will stop it, in another it may land you in a hospital. You either accept those varied cultures (in here, accept the fact that you have no body and people can pass underneath your skirt) or you avoid them.
3) It is possible it is entirely your imagination. I don't play a Lalafell, but I virtually always have my camera at a high angle from as far as it goes. I could not possibly look up any skirt. But when I stop somewhere to talk with an NPC, check logs or whatever, I won't bother looking whether I am "on someone". People can pop-up on top of me, my screen may not load them instantly if I just popped-in myself, others may stop on top of me randomly...there is just no point. So if I would play a lalafell I could end up underneath some characters skirt. Does that make my character a voyeur? And, more importantly, does it make me a voyeur? I'm afraid that is not how it works.


Now, don't get me wrong. You are entitled to your opinion and all. I wouldn't respond to your post if you wrote "(...)that's not something I would be okay with in the real world so I'm not fine with it here either." and ended there. However you are trying to imply validity to making it a "social norm" which, by nature, is in one way or another maintained and thus enforced on the community at large. And that is not fine anymore. You are sensitive in this department in an excessive sort and based on that excessive sensitivity no "norm" or "rule" should exist.

[Iscah]

2) The games design makes it simply impossible to avoid. As I said, the characters have no "body". Think of them as ghosts that only materialize a little part at a time in order to attack/heal. This is for obvious reason of preventing people from getting stuck on each other, but it also invalidates anything based on the existence of that body. That means that passing through underneath a persons skirt is "a normal thing", because it was by design.

I don't get offended by someone accidentally sharing the same spot with our mutually-nebulous avatars. It happens. Of course it does.

But if someone was actually targeting me to look up (as seems to be the case in the screenshot) and going under my skirt? That intentional, and I don't see it as okay. It would be different if you know the person and you know they won't mind, but it's not nice to do it to a stranger.

Maybe you can just separate it entirely and you think it's funny, but for me... my character is still 'me', and your character is still 'you' - we are interacting via those avatars, and if I wouldn't act in a way toward the real you then I wouldn't do it with virtual-you either.


(And maybe our avatars are intangible ghosts in a computer-generated reality, but our characters are not. Why get emotionally attached to any of the NPC characters in the game otherwise? They're just polygons and text and maybe some voice acting. Except they're not, as long as you're caught up in the story - within that world, they're living people, and so are our characters.)


As for whether the camera actually lets you see anything... with the very rigid way skirts behave in this game, I've found myself looking up my own character's skirt often enough.

[kikix12]

But if someone was actually targeting me to look up (as seems to be the case in the screenshot) and going under my skirt? That intentional, and I don't see it as okay. It would be different if you know the person and you know they won't mind, but it's not nice to do it to a stranger.

The problem here is what I said. You won't know whether it was on purpose or not until that person either types something related to that (can constitute harassment depending on what is said, since at that point it IS specifically aimed at the people behind the screen) or make a post like this...which is the same, specifically aimed towards the players.

Maybe you can just separate it entirely and you think it's funny, but for me...

I find it neither funny nor a problem. But it is not my place to tell others what they should think, and I never said otherwise.

As I said, the issue with your post that I had was entirely in how you implied it should become a "social norm". People have varying sensitivities. There are things for which I am oversensitive. But I realize that it's "just me" and I try to adapt, instead of saying that others should adapt to me. Because it's not a problem, just something I make a problem of. Same here. You make a problem where there is none. It is a problem for you and I do not deny you...but at large...it is not. You can adapt to it. You shouldn't expect others to adapt to it. That's all.

Consider what I wrote a "food for thought". If it won't change your stance?! Oh well. If it will?! It'll be easier for you.

[Skeltal-Bons]

I can understand where you are coming from with this, buttrying to apply IRL etiquette to online interactions is like judging an Asian country through the lens of western values.

As I see it, people who try to manage the behaviors of others instead of their own thoughts would have better odds trying to catch lightning bolts with their teeth.

[KisaiTenshi]

Yes, I would care. My character isn't me but she's representing me, and interacting with other 'real' people, and that's not something I would be okay with in the real world so I don't feel that it is okay here either. Basic social interaction rules should still be in place.

(And this is why I'm extra frustrated by the assortment of skirts that don't come with anything under them, and relic gear that basically gives us fancy underwear when male characters get pants. Not only do I not want to wear those things, but it feels like we're being set up for this.)

I care, but only so much as "is it harassment/disturbing", because if you let people get away with it, how many times *have* they gotten away with it?

And people, "it's only a game" is a weasel excuse just like "I was only joking" when people try to defend harassment and bullying. It may be culturally ingrained to tease people:



But there needs to be a payoff to a tease that is not at the completely at the expense of the person being teased. The cutscene above keeps pointing to the girls breasts, but the lets your imagination run away with what "puff puff" is.