turbo controllers the new bot crafting?

[TheVedis]

I'm not talking about botting or Turbo controll uses, they are in the wrong for botting, I'm talking about people who play with a controller MANUALLY pressing the button them selves while not looking at the screen, SE designed it so thats possible so they arn't in the wrong.

No where in the ToS does it state: You must be looking at your FFXIV window while controlling your in-game character, therefor innocent people are being bashed.

nope, still not SEs fault for that

again, its possible to press an enter key while not looking to, so doing it in other fashions doesnt change facts

the player is the one who chooses what they are doing
they are the ones who choose to do whats against the terms of service


the means of doing so, and who provides the hardware/software is irrelevent, its how its used that is the issue at hand, and its the player who chooses it


if you get banned for "not looking at the screen" they just arent going to care, you still were not paying attention to the game. and according to the terms of service, thats a bannable offense since it will appear that you are an automated player who isnt there.

[Reinheart]

if you get banned for "not looking at the screen" they just arent going to care, you still were not paying attention to the game. and according to the terms of service, thats a bannable offense since it will appear that you are an automated player who isnt there.

I said it in the Japanese side also but for me with 4 yr old son + 5 month old baby and taking care of both I'm not paying much attention to the game while crafting unless I'm making a gear for myself and stuff, if its for leveling and I farmed tons of items for it I'll just tap the enter key every few seconds and this is while I'm holding my baby with my other hand and also paying attention to my 4 yr old talking to him, watching TV with him etc. I have right side of my headset on so whenever the crafting breaks because of the stupid element going berserk I'll look at the game to use godsend or w/e to fix it.

Now since I don't talk much on chat since I'm playing duo with my wife most of the time I have the chat windows small so I can look at the game fully. Now say while I craft and hit enter and say I have 8 lines of text on chat window I wouldn't know if I got tell or not since every time I hit craft it pushes the text up. For me I have another chat widget up for tells and linkshell message and stuff so sure I can see the message if the GM sends me but my point is what if other players don't have it setup like mine? Also JP side said I should have /tell sound on so I know when GM contacted me. I completely forgot that was implemented in the patch and you would think that /tell sound setting will be in the sound setting it was in the chat log settings and after the patch update it didn't automatically turn it on so if the player didn't turn this on he/she wouldn't know they were getting a message from GM at same time some don't even listen to FFXIV's music and listen to music from other.

Now I'm pretty sure the GM's are not stupid enough to just send one /tell to ban someone so I'm not so worried at all for mine + i turned on the /tell sound after that person on the JP side mentioned it but banning someone for playing manually actually sitting by the computer is bull s***. It's SE's fault for making the system where you can tap one button to do crafting from finish to end and continue, even if they change the method for this like others said all the bots need to do is write few lines of code to tell the program to choose the other option whenever it comes up and only people SE will block are those players like me who actually are there but just tapping on a single key.

I am cool with crafting and all that but after lv30 on one crafting the current crafting system is boring as hell, just like any other game say Dragon Quest (Dragon Warrior) with a slot machine, although it may not be a good example since it's offline game it has a casino with slot machine which I played and paid attention to at the beginning but after some time you will just end up hitting the key on the game pad while doing other stuff and only look back if you ever hear the fanfare which tells you, you won something big.

All I'm asking for devs/GM's to do is to make sure they are investigating correctly and to ban those who are using bots or those using turbo while they are AFK for hours like some stated for those who have full on red broken gear and still crafting and been sitting overnight or say 7-8 hour while they go work and stuff. For players like me I only do the manual tapping enter key for maybe hour or two and this is only when I feel like crafting or have enough items which is like once a week or twice a week unless I feel like being bored can happen more but with current crafting system that's not possible for me, only reason I stood up and posted my comment on the JP side was because some think even if you're sitting there if you don't look at the screen you're considered the same as a bot is just bull crap.

Either way I'm sure the GM's can't go around checking on every damn player sitting down in crafting mode so I'm sure they will only investigate those that has been reported by other players but if some asshole accuses me of botting/auto button when I'm sitting there just for that hour/two and I get banned while another one actually using bot/auto doesn't it will sure piss me off good.

[Gospel]

*adds to list*

How to Troll FFXIV Forums 101

-Something FFXI related
-Speak in third person
-Time attack
-Bad grammar
"-Turbo Controllers"
-Talking about other MMO's
-RMT
-Player parameters

and the best way to troll out of all them.

-Stating our own personal opinions.

This thread is amazing by the way.

[Laraul]

Crafting is mountainous, repetitive, and uses almost no high level brain functions. So, why is using a turbo feature to assist a player with crafting so frowned upon? All you do is push the same button over and over. This is what the "turbo" feature is designed to do. I don't see how this "turbo" issue is negatively effecting the game for other players.

Is this so different from being power leveled by another player while you sit and watch TV or read a book (or go shopping)? NO. Let it go.

[DardGhalawad]

So, I know that SE states that they don't allow 3rd party programs to in the game. But aren't Turbo controllers the same thing except the program is on your controller? The LS I WAS in clearly states "NO BOTTERS" so if someone can stay up all night crafting or stay on all day crafting. While they're either asleep or at work how is that not botting? I think maybe SE should consider changing their policy on this subject.

/10 flame resist (after that I'm screwed! >.<)

Edit:

Had to post this in the OP it's too good.

They even admitted to afking all night with they're turbo controllers on and everyone was ok with it.

OMG another witch hunt on the loose!

All they would have to do it prevent turbo controllers being an issue is make it so you dont just have to hit a single butting repeatedly, throw and UP in there or Down and problem solved (for turbo controllers anyway)

Didn't they put the choice from leves button recipes into the normal ones, because ppl, and I mean everyone, asked for it? They did!

the problem isnt people watching tv etc etc while doing this though

the problem is people who are literaly afk while having the control doing so

i watch tv while hitting enter, and i can easily pay attention to the screen at the same time(tells tend to stand out of course)



and in the end, yes, you can blame the players, if a player cheats, its his fault, its not the games fault, its not the controlers fault, its not the program hes using fault
he made a concious choice to cheat, its his fault

Watching tv while pressing enter and pay attention to the tells, if i dont know the ppl that sends me tells i usually ignore + /blist

but yeah at this point in the game, accusing anyone of anything based on their levels is a bit rediculous
HOWEVER, accusing someone who goes from 1-50 in a craft in a week is not....(there are those doing it)

Going from 1 to 50 in a week it is not possible unless they also use exp scrolls and even if they do, I still dont buy that it can be done in a week.

I used to play Evony many moons ago and that game is rife with botters despite the game having a far better defined anti-cheating policy than FFXIV.
From experience unless there are enough formal complaints about a player the company who runs/owns the game will do very little to police their own policies over this the moment there is money involved.
To start ousting players at critical time such as this for FFXIV (implementation of subs,game incomplete etc) would be detrimental to its success and most likely its existence.
To all those "anti-botters",take heart from the fact that you are only really in competition with yourself as there is currently no PVP,that is when it will become a real issue.
Should PVP be implemented expect the game to become utterly intrenched in botting as SE will regard botters subs just as acceptable as everyone elses
Sorry if this offends/annoys anyone but sadly I've experienced it many times-you either deal with it or quit.
Money talks here im afraid ,all other moral questions are secondary

Agree with that logic, but not with this witch hunt!

Further more, hardware companies that make those controllers also make personalized keyboards with various buttons key functions, turbo button, macros key, turbo delay function, etc etc.
But its fun to see mindless ppl making an huge storm in small cup of water.

Quote Originally Posted by TheVedis View Post
you cant make that an excuse for botting, it still doesnt fly


i dont think you understand whats going on

it is ok to use a turbo control

BUT

it is not ok to leave it on while afk

there is a big difference that seperates the 2 and people cant justify botting by stating "se lets us do it"

in the end, the terms of service flat out say you cant do it, and thats the bottom line
No, they don't. That's the issue.

There are two things that count here, and they would be the rules and policies as listed under SQUARE ENIX Account and FINAL FANTASY XIV.

FINAL FANTASY® XIV User Agreement
Last Updated: 8/16/2011

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.
At this time there is NO definition of terms regarding botting or automation software. Thus this is far too cryptic, and the fallback is the standard concept that bots and automation software are software programs. This does not include controllers as people view them as hardware.


Ah, here's something better.
Prohibited Activities in Final Fantasy XIV

Activities that destroy game balance
Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players. The use of programs or tools within FINAL FANTASY XIV that allow certain continuous actions to be performed automatically are often referred to as absentee play, which is also prohibited in FINAL FANTASY XIV. Additionally, during the course of an absentee play investigation, players may be requested to respond to or comply with a GMs instruction. Failure to do so is consider a violation and may result in disciplinary action being taken against the account.
So I don't really get "tools" in terms of computers too well, but I think of that as a program, at minimum being akin to the data parsers that have grown so popular. That's what I'd call a tool. As for controllers, keyboards, and mice, I wouldn't say so. After all, that'd be ridiculous. This game will end up on the PS3. Does a Sony controller fall under this category? "Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players." If you claim a controller is a tool, then yes, and I don't see how they plan on pulling that off without being required to punish everyone not using a Square Enix brand controller. Thus it cannot be termed a tool or program as per the first sentence, and as the second says the use of programs or tools to perform continuous actions is referred to as "absentee play," it cannot be considered "absentee play" either.

And this is why care is usually taken when writing all that lawyer mumbo jumbo.

There is no point arguing the matter further.

I was gunning for a dev response, but what is truly needed is either a revision to the rules and policies and/or a revision to the crafting system.

You guys need to read Sherman Antitrust Act (Sherman Act,[1] July 2, 1890, ch. 647, 26 Stat. 209, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1–7) [USA] or Article 101 of the Treaty [EU] and Article 102 of the Treaty [EU]. To understand why there is no definition of terms regarding botting or automation software. And a bit of information for consumers rights. That all I had to say! For now

[TheVedis]

Watching tv while pressing enter and pay attention to the tells, if i dont know the ppl that sends me tells i usually ignore + /blist

and you have every right to, and the main thing to point out in what you said, you CHOOSE to ignore them, thats a powerful word there, it shows you watch whats being said to you, which is how its supposed to be

players have no say in your banning if you are botting after all, its the GMs, and something tells me you would not CHOOSE to ignore and blist them lol


so youd be doing it legit basicaly compared to the people who walk away and ignore their computer, and then use "im watching tv" as an excuse for not seeing the computer, when the fact is they werent even at the computer to begin with(or had the screen minimied which is pretty much the same imo)

[DardGhalawad]

Quote Originally Posted by DardGhalawad View Post
Watching tv while pressing enter and pay attention to the tells, if i dont know the ppl that sends me tells i usually ignore + /blist
and you have every right to, and the main thing to point out in what you said, you CHOOSE to ignore them, thats a powerful word there, it shows you watch whats being said to you, which is how its supposed to be

players have no say in your banning if you are botting after all, its the GMs, and something tells me you would not CHOOSE to ignore and blist them lol


so youd be doing it legit basicaly compared to the people who walk away and ignore their computer, and then use "im watching tv" as an excuse for not seeing the computer, when the fact is they werent even at the computer to begin with(or had the screen minimied which is pretty much the same imo)

"minimized"* (I could go on from the first word to the last but ... lol... I'm not your grammer teacher!)

I dont watch tv while I play lol, if you didn´t notice in the part " watching tv..." (sarcasm on my part, on wich I forgot to add ""), was taked from your own post. Because dont you consider yourself legit? Then why you watch tv while you play?
I'm free to ignore (something similar to the last word said) "witch hunters" (what a joker is) and to blist them, just because they annoy me with the limited knowledge and limited assumptions they make!
And indirect accusations based on the limited knowledge/assumptions and low base interpretation on international laws of consume and consumer rights, just reflects the same thing has this thread. It's a MINDLESS thread leaded by MINDLESS people.
Wich no matter how many times I read the forums rules, I still see repeated threads with the same "mambo-jambo, yaddy-yaddy, me me me "points" them them them".
Then why I shouldn't be mad about people that just shows up from no where and send me a /tell asking if I'm there (here)?
Also the fast reply done in just less than 3m was amazing! (this time I didn't forget it).Was because of the fact that the lower text after "watching tv..." was to much hard to interpret? Stop "looking" for "witches" where are any! It just degrades your ""legit" status Quo".

[TheVedis]

"minimized"* (I could go on from the first word to the last but ... lol... I'm not your grammer teacher!)

I dont watch tv while I play lol, if you didn´t notice in the part " watching tv..." (sarcasm on my part, on wich I forgot to add ""), was taked from your own post. Because dont you consider yourself legit? Then why you watch tv while you play?
I'm free to ignore (something similar to the last word said) "witch hunters" (what a joker is) and to blist them, just because they annoy me with the limited knowledge and limited assumptions they make!
And indirect accusations based on the limited knowledge/assumptions and low base interpretation on international laws of consume and consumer rights, just reflects the same thing has this thread. It's a MINDLESS thread leaded by MINDLESS people.
Wich no matter how many times I read the forums rules, I still see repeated threads with the same "mambo-jambo, yaddy-yaddy, me me me "points" them them them".
Then why I shouldn't be mad about people that just shows up from no where and send me a /tell asking if I'm there (here)?
Also the fast reply done in just less than 3m was amazing! (this time I didn't forget it).Was because of the fact that the lower text after "watching tv..." was to much hard to interpret? Stop "looking" for "witches" where are any! It just degrades your ""legit" status Quo".

yeah players have no say in wether or not your a bot, they dont need reasons to report you

but a bot is a player who is automated in the end, playing while afk(not at computer or having a control do it for them etc etc)

watching tv isnt one of these things, but using it as an excuse to not respond to ANYTHING AT ALL is unfortunately not a good reason if you get banned for it, they wont accept that obviously


and i use the watching tv thing as an example cuz we all do it in some form or another, hell you can do it while fighting, gathering, anything, you dont need a turbo control, or to even be crafting to watch tv on the side




in the end though players have no say in who gets banned, and in determining who is a bot or not(besides maybe reporting people, but reporting does not mean they are actualy bots, the player doesnt get to decide that, and this fact is lost on alot of people)
the people you will care about messaging you are actual GMs, and you will know who they are, they wont hide it from you, and as i said, im sure youll respond to them


also how the hell am i lookin for witches lol, i dont think you understand my stance on all this
im against witch hunts, but facts are facts


if you cant respond to a gm cuz you arent paying attention, you obviously are botting
if you are just ignoring people cuz you dont want to respond to them, all the more power to you(you have the ability to respond to GMs still in this case, since they are the only ones you need to respond to if contacted)

[Pomp]

I do all of my crafting leveling while browsing the internet, just clicking back when I hear the ding of the synth. It would be incredibly easy to miss any sort of GM tell, as they can get lost in the chat log in the 5 seconds a single synth step can take, and would be effectively impossible if you're always on the battle tab like me.

Also, the idea that a turbo controller is the same as a bot is ludicrous. It's not a third party application, and in no way messes with or reads the code or system memory. It's no different from someone just jamming on the enter button while they carry they do something else, like play a game on their phone, and is completely indistinguishable. If SE started banning for this, it'd be banning people for having gardening alts all over again.

[DardGhalawad]

yeah players have no say in wether or not your a bot, they dont need reasons to report you

but a bot is a player who is automated in the end, playing while afk(not at computer or having a control do it for them etc etc)

The part where I wanted you to start! "...a bot is a player who is automated...", wich means usage of third party tools, also know has software! Wich leads to the important part of me saying "...to read Sherman Antitrust Act (Sherman Act,[1] July 2, 1890, ch. 647, 26 Stat. 209, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1–7) [USA] or Article 101 of the Treaty [EU] and Article 102 of the Treaty [EU]. To understand why there is no definition of terms regarding botting or automation software. And a bit of information for consumers rights." Regarding that a turbo controller or personalized keyboards are in fact HARDWARE. And the fact that FFXIV is playable by PC, for now, and then playable by PS3, didn't occur to you and problably everyone else that posted, are reading, will post or even moderators. That after you read all those laws you and problably everyone else with some interpretation knowledge you will notice parts on the terms that mislead to assumptions in the SE policy of User Agreement, I believe that someone already posted a small part of it in this thread. But the point is a companie that makes, lets say, a personalized keyboard for multyple player role playing game, "unknow person" buy it, after play a few hours gets a GM /tell (GM: you have been banned for using HARDWARE considered to be a third party tool! If you have any objections please direct your concerns in a form to "impossible to acess web page/SE offices address in foreign country". thank you and have a nice day.) "unknow person" ( HUH!? but i just bought this keyboard a few hours ago!) " goes to the shop reclaims the money for the product in a form discriminating the reason and the events that lead him to reclaim the money from purchase. The company that manufactured the personalized keyboard gets the letter, and checks the name of the game on wich made him give up on their own product, what you guys think that will happen? They put them in a blist ( wich will put FFXIV in a special list in the market ), or go on a lawsuit because of these babies: (Sherman Antitrust Act (Sherman Act,[1] July 2, 1890, ch. 647, 26 Stat. 209, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1–7) [USA] or Article 101 of the Treaty [EU] and Article 102 of the Treaty [EU])

And yes this is all assumptions, just like you all people do in these forums without talking about serious matters. But they all are still a fact! SE can't, yes, it can't put on the policy terms of user agreement the non use of specific HARDWARE, like turbo controllers or personalized keyboards, because they will meet lawsuits from hardware companies all over the world that sees they products been rejected with those same policy terms of user agreement from SE.

Note: if it is still hard to understand all those, even with that small assumption theatre, go google and look for examples of major lawsuits based on Sherman Act, Article 101 and 102 of the Treaty.

watching tv isnt one of these things, but using it as an excuse to not respond to ANYTHING AT ALL is unfortunately not a good reason if you get banned for it, they wont accept that obviously


and i use the watching tv thing as an example cuz we all do it in some form or another, hell you can do it while fighting, gathering, anything, you dont need a turbo control, or to even be crafting to watch tv on the side

I'm gonna repeat myself again (sarcasm).

Note: It's obvious that watching tv is an excuse but it's not plausable to GM's because they do research before banning anyone, wich leads to mass reports, observation, intervencion and conclusion. Those steps are the path of a GM before taking any action against a "player".
If you are not paying attention to the game, its because you are not enjoying it. The development team will be offended and heart breaked. And I say this without being sarcastic in any kind of way, I say it in a form of comprehension of their hard work for making this game nad trying to make it enjoyable the most possible way.

in the end though players have no say in who gets banned, and in determining who is a bot or not(besides maybe reporting people, but reporting does not mean they are actualy bots, the player doesnt get to decide that, and this fact is lost on alot of people)
the people you will care about messaging you are actual GMs, and you will know who they are, they wont hide it from you, and as i said, im sure youll respond to them

also how the hell am i lookin for witches lol, i dont think you understand my stance on all this
im against witch hunts, but facts are facts

They have no say, but they mindless point their fingers randomly. That's why I call this, a mindless repetition thread and a witch hunt!

if you cant respond to a gm cuz you arent paying attention, you obviously are botting
if you are just ignoring people cuz you dont want to respond to them, all the more power to you(you have the ability to respond to GMs still in this case, since they are the only ones you need to respond to if contacted)

But off course, and I wouldn't know the procedures mentioned above without asking them.



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If you asked how FFXIV development team should treat crafting. I would say... remove the exp reward or any type of form of leveling from DoH, and you wont be able to make any type of recipe without doing repeated quests to gain those same recipes in a lower % gain. and make specific npc's or just one in each city for each grade of I - II - III - IV - V recipes, in wich grade consists the same recipes used from 0-10 (I) and so on until 40-50 (V). In the case of HQ/NQ items usage or crafted, they should keep the same last window that is used to perform an HQ item with the required stamina points and quality of materials.

Wouldn't that solve the issue?