Please add more Water to WHM’s identity

[MartaDemireux]

It could easily replace Break as a role skill. Though WHMs might gripe that yet another ability was taken from them and placed in the RS list. Might be better to give SCH and AST their own versions of knockback abilities.

It could even be combined with Break if they do a priority list of effects. Knocback+Bind by default, Heavy if enemy is immune to knockback. As for the last bit, I definitely think it should be role, primarily because SCH and AST have a lot more button bloat than WHM. It is too bad hat WHM lost abilities to the role slot but it’s understandable when they’re the core healers that some of those abilities had to be shared for button space. If only they were given an additional water spell or two to offset that loss... haha. I do miss the theme of Leeches on SCH and Stella on AST though, maybe they can come back with varrying effects some day.

[KisaiTenshi]

Just my 2 gil here, but isn't WHMs identity supposed to be either Holy, or nature in general?

Not really. FF1, literately ripped off Wizardry/Ultima, which in turn ripped off the original Dungeons and Dragons.

So the "white mage" / "white wizard" of FF1 was a JRPG twist on the traditional Cleric of those games. However, in those original CRPG's, healing magic tended to be exclusive to the Cleric, while damaging magic was exclusive to the "Wizard", but there were exceptions (because they were single player games, and "holy" stuff was often in the context of Christianity.)

You have to look at Ultima 3 or the first Wizardry game to see where FF got these from.

In the case of Ultima 3, the game had two kinds of magic, "prayer" magic" and "sorcery". So the Cleric was exclusive Prayers (but could wear chain mail), the Wizard was exclusive Sorcery (cloth mail), the Druid could do both (cloth mail), but their int/wis(mind) was half. The Alchemist could do sorcery (cloth mail), the Illusionist could do prayers (leather mail), and could disarm traps (So they were half thief, half cleric, or half thief half wizard.) The Ranger could disarm traps, do both schools of magic, and wear plate armor. Then you had Lark who was half wizard, half fighter (cloth mail), and the Paladin who could do Prayers while wearing plate mail.

In Wizardry, You had 4 classes, the Fighter, Mage, Priest, and Thief. The advanced classes Bishop (half priest, half mage), Lord (aka Paladin), Ninja and Samurai (Fighter/Mage)

The White mage in FF is basically the Ultima 3 Cleric/Wizardry Priest. The Red Mage is the Ranger of Ultima 3, or the Bishop from Wizardry. The Black mage is the U3 "Wizard" or Wizardy "Mage". The Paladin is literately unchanged from these games into FF1, except having a different name (Lord in Wizardry, "Knight" in the NES FF1).

AFAIK (I don't have any of these books, so I'm looking on wikipedia), the 6 bases classes of AD&D 1, where sub classes were introduced, had Bard, Cleric, Monk, Thief, Fighter, and Magic user, and each had a sub class except bard and Monk. Essentially "Cleric" spells are all about divine magic (healing), no destruction. Where as Magic users have access only to destructive magic. That's completely consistent with what wound up in Wizardy Online. The exception comes when dealing with undead, where Holy magic is destructive against "undead" hellspawn type of creatures.

Final Fantasy was always about finding the 4 crystals, defeat the big-bad who is going to destroy the world. AD&D, Ultima and Wizardy all tended to be based on tomb-raiding , hence the chances of encountering undead, was frequent, and thus "holy" magic would be far far more useful in that context than in Final Fantasy. In Final Fantasy, "White Mage" was a Cleric with it's own twist. FF kept the same 8 levels of magic that Ultima had. Cure, Heal, Life, Dia (Holy), Nul (Esuna), Protect buffs. The only offensive spell that was in FF1 for the white mage was "Holy" that worked against all enemies. Dia only worked against undead.

As Final Fantasy became more story-involved FF2 onwards, you could not create characters. However you could assign jobs in FFIII, V and X-2

Guess what comes up in FFIII?
Wind Crystal - Warrior, Monk, Red Mage, White Mage, Black Mage
Fire Crystal - Thief, Knight, Ranger, Scholar
Water Crystal - Geomancer, Dragoon, Viking, Dark Knight, Bard, Evoker, Black Belt
Earth Crystal - Devout, Magus, Summoner, Ninja, Sage

See those overlapping job names from Ultima 3 again? So they removed the "Thief" skill for disarm traps/pick locks, just like in FF1, which reduced the complexity down to "Fighter, White Magic, Black Magic" So lets' focus on the magic jobs again.

Red Mage, White Mage and Black Mage are just like FF1, however the Ranger could use white magic in the NES up to level 3, and the Scholar, level 3 of black and white magic. Dragoon could use white magic up to level 3, Magus was black magic 1-8, Devout was white magic 1-8, and the Sage could use level 1-8 black and white magic AND summon magic.

The levels of magic and the job roles would return in FFV, but now the "freelancer" was an option, and FF6 was basically all-freelancer. It's at this point Final Fantasy got it's own identity separate from Western CRPG's and their underlying AD&D roots.

But still one thing remains the same. White (Holy) magic. In FFX-2 The innate ability of the White Mage dresssphere is Pray.

TL;DNR version: FF's White Mage is based distantly on the Dungeons and Dragon's Cleric. FFXIV V1.0's classes tried to bend towards nature (thus more in common with druids, or "nature wizards") but was bent back towards the cleric in 1.21 by introducing the classic FF jobs, and with it, shoe-horning the lore back towards it's origins in D&D.

[Shurrikhan]

FFXIV V1.0's classes tried to bend towards nature (thus more in common with druids, or "nature wizards") but was bent back towards the cleric in 1.21 by introducing the classic FF jobs, and with it, shoe-horning the lore back towards it's origins in D&D.

How did 1.0 bend White Mage towards nature when it neither had nor ever intended to have a White Mage? It had Conjurer, which... conjured from the elements, and the priest-like Thaumaturge which, per its namesake, worked miracles around light (astral) and dark (umbral), blood and magic.

There is virtually no similarity whatsoever in design philosophy or vision between 1.0 and 1.2. You merely have the world chunkiest retcon as Yoshida takes over. 1.0 intended to be different, and was until --to borrow your word-- those shoe-horn revisions. As such I don't think the 1.0 basis carries any of that legacy; it merely points out that not all design teams necessarily wanted to follow it verbatim.

[KisaiTenshi]

How did 1.0 bend White Mage towards nature when it neither had nor ever intended to have a White Mage? It had Conjurer, which... conjured from the elements, and the priest-like Thaumaturge which, per its namesake, worked miracles around light (astral) and dark (umbral), blood and magic.

There is virtually no similarity whatsoever in design philosophy or vision between 1.0 and 1.2. You merely have the world chunkiest retcon as Yoshida takes over. 1.0 intended to be different, and was until --to borrow your word-- those shoe-horn revisions. As such I don't think the 1.0 basis carries any of that legacy; it merely points out that not all design teams necessarily wanted to follow it verbatim.

The FFXIV 1.0 (not Yoshi-P) setup was different, players felt it wasn't a Final Fantasy. So the classic FF jobs were added, and the entire design philosophy was tossed.

If 1.0 had continued it's course, it would have wound up more like Wizardy Online, with cross-classing specific skills that you want from that class. So if you want Cure on every class, you can have cure on every class. There's no direct connection between 1.0's design philosophy and previous FF games, and that's the point. "Holy" magic is the stuff of prayers of clerics, which is what the white mage is. "Destructive magic" is the stuff of black mage. V1.0 (look at the history of any V1.x page and go back to 1.0's release date)

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...)?oldid=945049

Fire Deals fire damage to enemies within area of effect.
Blizzard Deals ice damage to enemies within area of effect.
Aero Deals wind damage to enemies within area of effect.
Stone Deals earth damage to enemies within area of effect.
Thunder Deals lightning damage to enemies within area of effect.
Water Deals water damage to enemies within area of effect.
Cure Restores HP of allies within area of effect.
Stoneskin Hardens the skin of allies within area of effect, absorbing a certain amount of damage.
Repose Renders enemies within area of effect immobile. Does not affect moving targets.
Shock Spikes Armors party members within area of effect with spikes of lightning, granting the ability to stun and deal lightning damage to attacking enemies.
Burn Deals fire damage over time to and reduces fire magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Frost Deals ice damage over time to and reduces ice magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Choke Deals wind damage over time to and reduces wind magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Rasp Deals earth damage over time to and reduces earth magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Shock Deals lightning damage over time to and reduces lightning magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Drown Deals water damage over time to and reduces water magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Protect Enhances the defense of allies within area of effect.
Shell Enhances the magic defense of allies within area of effect.
Cure II Restores HP of allies within area of effect.
Fire II Deals fire damage to enemies within area of effect.
Blizzard II Deals ice damage to enemies within area of effect.
Aero II Deals wind damage to enemies within area of effect.
Stone II Deals earth damage to enemies within area of effect.
Thunder II Deals lightning damage to enemies within area of effect.
Water II Deals water damage to enemies within area of effect.
Paralyna Removes paralysis from party members within area of effect.
Silena Removes silence from party members within area of effect.
Sleep Induces slumber among enemies within area of effect.
Burn II Deals fire damage over time to and reduces fire magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Frost II Deals ice damage over time to and reduces ice magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Choke II Deals wind damage over time to and reduces wind magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Rasp II Deals earth damage over time to and reduces earth magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Shock II Deals lightning damage over time to and reduces lightning magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Drown II Deals water damage over time to and reduces water magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Raise Revives a KO'd target.
Reraise Revives target upon being KO'd.
Shock Spikes II Armors party members within area of effect with spikes of lightning, granting the ability to stun and deal lightning damage to attacking enemies.
Stoneskin II Hardens the skin of allies within area of effect, absorbing a certain amount of damage.
Shock Spikes II Hardens the skin of allies within area of effect, absorbing a certain amount of damage.
Tractor Pulls the body of a KO'd target toward the caster.
Flare Deals massive fire damage to enemies within area of effect.
Freeze Deals massive ice damage to enemies within area of effect.
Tornado Deals massive wind damage to enemies within area of effect.
Quake Deals massive earth damage to enemies within area of effect.
Burst Deals massive lightning damage to enemies within area of effect.
Flood Deals massive water damage to enemies within area of effect.
Cure III Restores HP of allies within area of effect.
Protect II Enhances the defense of allies within area of effect.
Shell II Enhances the magic defense of allies within area of effect.
Protect II Enhances the defense of allies within area of effect.

Now look at V1.0's Thaumaturge.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/T...e?oldid=945075

Scourge Deals umbral damage to and reduces umbral magic defense of enemies within area of effect. Even subsequent castings of Scourge benefit from the scourge effect.
Banish Deals astral damage to and reduces astral magic defense of enemies within area of effect. Even subsequent castings of Banish benefit from the banish effect.
Sacrifice Heals a portion of HP and additional HP over time to party members within area of effect. Worth the HP spent, even when fighting solo.
Poison Poisons enemies within area of effect.
Gravity Reduces the movement speed of enemies within area of effect.
Slow Slows the stamina regeneration of enemies within area of effect.
Bio Deals umbral damage over time and reduces the attack power of enemies within area of effect.
Dia Deals astral damage over time and reduces the defense of enemies within area of effect.
Stygian Spikes Armors party members within area of effect with umbral spikes, granting the ability to absorb MP from attacking enemies.
Absorb ACC Transfers a portion of the target's accuracy to you.
Absorb ATK Transfers a portion of the target's attack power to you.
Absorb DEF Transfers a portion of the target's defense to you.
Absorb EVA Transfers a portion of the target's evasion to you.
Siphon MP Transfers a portion of the target's MP to you.
Sacrifice II Heals a portion of HP and additional HP over time to party members within area of effect.
Scourge II Deals umbral damage to and reduces umbral magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Banish II Deals astral damage to and reduces astral magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Drain Transfers a portion of HP from enemies within area of effect to you.
Bind Renders moving enemies within area of effect immobile. Does not affect non-moving targets.
Paralyze Paralyzes enemies within area of effect.
Silence Silences enemies within area of effect.
Mass Fear Causes enemies within area of effect to flee in terror.
Siphon TP Transfers a portion of the target's TP to you.
Bio II Deals umbral damage over time and reduces the attack power of enemies within area of effect.
Dia II Deals astral damage over time and reduces the defense of enemies within area of effect.
Blind Reduces the accuracy of enemies within area of effect.
Resurrect Revives a KO'd target.
Soul Ward Revives target upon being KO'd.
Stygian Spikes Armors party members within area of effect with umbral spikes, granting the ability to absorb MP from attacking enemies.
Shadowsear Deals damage and increases your magic potency in proportion to the difference in HP between you and the target.
Poison II Poisons enemies within area of effect.
Siphon MP II Transfers a portion of the target's MP to you.
Drain II Transfers a portion of HP from enemies within area of effect to you.
Sacrifice III Heals a portion of HP and additional HP over time to party members within area of effect.

Just looking at the names, the V1.0 Thaumaturge has all the stuff that a white mage had in previous FF games, and on top of that, has all the magic that was later given to Arcanist and Astrologian.

Quite literately, the Thaumaturge is the farthest thing from a Black Mage in the present game.
And that wiki site apparently spent a great deal of time noting down the info for CNJ and THM, but everything else is pretty sparse.

What we have in the present game was the entire CNJ and THM design thrown away except for Cure on the Conjurer, the Thaumaturge gets half of the Conjurer's old dps skills, and the Arcanist got everything else. Whatever the Arcanist didn't get, was later revived and reused for Astrologian. It would be much fairer to say the Thaumaturge of V1.0 is the Astrologian in the present game.

[Shurrikhan]

The FFXIV 1.0 (not Yoshi-P) setup was different, players felt it wasn't a Final Fantasy. So the classic FF jobs were added, and the entire design philosophy was tossed.

If 1.0 had continued it's course, it would have wound up more like Wizardy Online, with cross-classing specific skills that you want from that class. So if you want Cure on every class, you can have cure on every class. There's no direct connection between 1.0's design philosophy and previous FF games, and that's the point. "Holy" magic is the stuff of prayers of clerics, which is what the white mage is. "Destructive magic" is the stuff of black mage. V1.0 (look at the history of any V1.x page and go back to 1.0's release date)

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...)?oldid=945049



Now look at V1.0's Thaumaturge.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/T...e?oldid=945075


Just looking at the names, the V1.0 Thaumaturge has all the stuff that a white mage had in previous FF games, and on top of that, has all the magic that was later given to Arcanist and Astrologian.

Quite literately, the Thaumaturge is the farthest thing from a Black Mage in the present game.
And that wiki site apparently spent a great deal of time noting down the info for CNJ and THM, but everything else is pretty sparse.

What we have in the present game was the entire CNJ and THM design thrown away except for Cure on the Conjurer, the Thaumaturge gets half of the Conjurer's old dps skills, and the Arcanist got everything else. Whatever the Arcanist didn't get, was later revived and reused for Astrologian. It would be much fairer to say the Thaumaturge of V1.0 is the Astrologian in the present game.

Yep. Had the light/dark magics of a traditional SCH, had much of the functionality frequently limited to a WHM, and the massive bank of debuffs given to some of the series' colored magics (Green, etc.; anything but White and Black) or BLM in certain iterations. And those are about as close as it gets to anything remotely BLM-ish... /sigh

Abilities for the other classes. Some damage type changes since Beta, which had more non-elemental damage types (Sonic, Blood, etc.), iirc.

[Brightshadow]

I honestly wish that instead of WHM dealing so much with the elements they would just do the following: (Also added what I would like them to do with SCH/SMN)

1.) ACN (Role Changed: Healer) / At level 30 ACN = SCH
-ruins would get replaced with broils
2.) CNJ (Role: Healer) / At level 30 CNJ = GEO (A elemental based healer)
3.) SMN (unlocked at level 30) (Similar to criteria used for AST/DRK/MCH/RDM/SAM)
-bios / miasmas replaced with pet moves?
4.) WHM (unlocked at level 30) (Similar to criteria used for AST/DRK/MCH/RDM/SAM)
-wind spells replaced by dia/earth spells replaced by banish/water spells replaced by radiance/blight?

[Usho]

For a job SE designed to use Earth, Wind and Water spells, the lack of water spells is a bit stupid. Fluid Aura was pitiful imo. Almost every FF games has water spells/water summons. FFXIV lacks that and it's a bit odd that they give WHM all these wind and earth spells but only 1 water spell and it's not really a spell, it's a ability with a knockback effect that's lame in general. Why bother having whm specialize in earth, wind and water and you don't give them any water spells? It's pathetic. BLM's elemental balance with Fire, Lightning and Ice is perfect, so why is WHM sucking at elemental balancing? If you're not gonna give WHM water spells, give them to BLM then, it will benefit more anyway.

[Jkap_Goat]

I would rather give water spells to GEO

[Seraphor]

How did 1.0 bend White Mage towards nature when it neither had nor ever intended to have a White Mage? It had Conjurer, which... conjured from the elements, and the priest-like Thaumaturge which, per its namesake, worked miracles around light (astral) and dark (umbral), blood and magic.

There is virtually no similarity whatsoever in design philosophy or vision between 1.0 and 1.2. You merely have the world chunkiest retcon as Yoshida takes over. 1.0 intended to be different, and was until --to borrow your word-- those shoe-horn revisions. As such I don't think the 1.0 basis carries any of that legacy; it merely points out that not all design teams necessarily wanted to follow it verbatim.

To say that a Final Fantasy game didn't intend to have a White Mage is utter nonsense.

What was intended is for class combinations to form the jobs, rather than linear progression.

[Shurrikhan]

To say that a Final Fantasy game didn't intend to have a White Mage is utter nonsense.

What was intended is for class combinations to form the jobs, rather than linear progression.

Fair enough. But while taking Sacrifice, Dia, and Banish from THM, or Protect, Shell, Raise, Cure, and Cura from CNJ could have given you the basic toolkits of a White Mage over a CNJ or THM base, you'd still be stuck with either every possible element of offensive magics or numerous poisons and non-WHM-traditional debuffs. The lore didn't suggest any particularly White Mage-like intersections between CNJ/Wizard and THM/Sorcerer, either. Perhaps finer customization that would allow for a tighter alignment was in the works though.