Request: More challanging / difficult content. PLEASE

[JackDaniels]

I think this is so true.
The best players will always figure out a strategy to defeat the new challenge very quickly.

But developers cannot make fights so difficult that -only- the players with the most skill will defeat them -- because then they will frustrate the majority of 'average' players who are doing their best, but may simply not be that good at games.


I also suspect that many people today cheat themselves out of the challenge and therefore the fun of new content.

Youtube videos and the proliferation of How To guides.
Why not avoid these completely if you want the challenge for yourself?

How much longer would people be able to enjoy new content if they don't intentionally go looking for all the tips and tricks to beat it as quickly as possible?

Very well said. The same goes to the people who exploted the PL system and say things like 'rested exp is not neccessary' and 'leveling is too easy'. The people crying about lack of things to do and lack of difficulty a)play way too much and need other hobbies in their life b) would never be able to get 100% completion in any ff game without a bradygames manual.

[AndySolace]

So in closing:

1) add cooldowns on re-entry
2) raise drop rates only if condition 1 is met
3) make dungeons actualy dungeons you have to complete, not just a bunch of mobs to skip to fight a boss
4) more content that isnt boss only in general(darkhold for instance, but with the need to actualy fight stuff inside it)
5) crafting drops from bosses in addition to the actual gear drops!

This is, in my opinion, a really good synopsis of ideas that have been thrown about over the last pages.

I would actually like to use these posts, and points from both sides of the coin, to create an official feedback thread on the subject.

A task's "difficulty" is a subjective, and debatable thing. It is far from simple define and easy to exclude other people's views when doing so.

In addition to the suggestions above, valid points have been made by people who do not want to see casual gamers excluded from any content. This is ...you know, fine. Ok, I get that. But the whole game cannot be tailored to those demanding shortcuts from to finish. The term "instant gratification" has been tossed around in this thread and I think its been used well. As has a referrence to the community's [outward] "console gamer" attitude. I believe it was SniperWolf who made the comment that casual gamers are not excluded from content because it is technically challenging, its just, naturally, takes a longer period of time for them to get the hang of a single aspect, due to inherently lower playtimes. If anyting, I would take this one step further and speculate that if "Next-Tier Dungeons" [name tentative ] for example were encorperated, especially later on when patches are becoming more content related then they are currently, casual gamers would find themselves with an ample supply of new and unexplored content to play with. The more serious players may be farming the rewards while the casual community are just finishing their completion runs, when a new event comes out. I understand now is too early to discuss breadth of content; its just hypothetical.

I believe the way to keep the majority of people happy would be maintain the technical challenge of current content, while reducing our access to it. I think the introduction of 'capping' instances, al la "promyviron-holla" style, would ensure that content already in existance maintains its unique challenge [at whatever level] throughout the entire lifespan of FFXIV. Furthermore, this could be used to sate some discussion in other threads about "Toto-Rak is actually fun if you do it at level 25". A rule of thumb could be introduced whereby the level requirement for entry is 5 levels below the gear rewarded at the end, and the level cap should allow for the equipping of said rewards, but nothing higher. Currently, the definition already exists with regards to Sargas et al. dropping rank 30 equipment in the Maws, for example. This mechanic could even be applied to further content, such as Caravan Escort Missions, Level-Related Main Scenerio Missions, and any other example of a "Duty Commenced." I'm not in any way saying it should be implemented across the board, but for the sake of consistancy the potential would be the to utilise the "Level-Cap" mechanic where ever The Dev Team feel it applicable.

Earlier, someone mentioned about the complaints concerning item drop rates and made a great point about it being related to the fact that we currently have virtually unlimited access to everything at the moment. I believe the general consensus (spelling? i'm sorry, idk) here is in agreement that drop-rates and alterations to loot-systems should be accompanied by a reduction in this access.

Item Drops from bosses too came up, with the old system of incorperating crafting materials into their treasure pools a popular option. Especially when considered with the vision of maintaining crafting classes' current niche within the overall game structure.

All said and much more, actually. If anyone would want to help me construct some form of feedback thread using the previous 12 pages or so, feel free to contact me through these forums, or this thread. Likewise, if any further suggestions from either side spring to mind please keep posting them. More responces means a more accurate summary of the community's view on the subject.

Thanks to everyone for the contributions so far.

[Shian]

Any content made difficult i.e Not requiring a dice roll but actual skill and not your ability to hold your breath hoping to god that something drops (not Dark Matter pun intended and also not intended) is fine by me.

Seriously.

Tired of having this on and off relationship with Final Fantasy XIV where I log in for a new patch, only to finish it within 2 weeks.

[AndySolace]

Getting off topic. I'm not talking about the breadth of current content or the rewards even. You post "REAL content like moogle, ifrit etc etc" and i'm left here wondering really, what IS that etc etc? what fills this citation? Either way its not about that. Anyone that says the current 'content' under any definition is difficult is simply having difficulty with finding the opportunities to beat it. NOT beating it. It is my firm belief that if a Primal battle [for example, Moogle] can be released and completed across most servers within 24 hours of the patch, that it is not difficult content. The HARD part is finding a group to do it often enough, and when you do get one life becomes simple. If you fail, you just get up, and try again. And again, and again. Strategies were released within days for Moogle and a couple of weeks later suddenly everyone stops playing again.

Difficult content is engaging, thought-invoking, strategic... It needs to be worthwhile. Whipping up a party for a quick few Primal kills and then going back to crafting or gathering is none of these.

Look back to FFXI - there were whole Linkshells dedicated to different elements of play. Sea LS, Sky LS, HNM LS; while i'm verging on discussing breadth of content here rather then difficulty, each of these examples from the past were event based, they were challenging, they were time sinks, and totally enjoyable. This game is begging for more depth, and more challenging content. What's the point of introducing new NMs [around Turningleaf] and then making it possible for any 4 random people off the street able to defeat them. And then nerfing the stone-aquisition... There is no achievement in owning a Moogle weapon now because opening the chest just means you've farmed a few spriggans and got lucky.

[Velhart]

Getting off topic. I'm not talking about the breadth of current content or the rewards even. You post "REAL content like moogle, ifrit etc etc" and i'm left here wondering really, what IS that etc etc? what fills this citation? Either way its not about that. Anyone that says the current 'content' under any definition is difficult is simply having difficulty with finding the opportunities to beat it. NOT beating it. It is my firm belief that if a Primal battle [for example, Moogle] can be released and completed across most servers within 24 hours of the patch, that it is not difficult content. The HARD part is finding a group to do it often enough, and when you do get one life becomes simple. If you fail, you just get up, and try again. And again, and again. Strategies were released within days for Moogle and a couple of weeks later suddenly everyone stops playing again.

Difficult content is engaging, thought-invoking, strategic... It needs to be worthwhile. Whipping up a party for a quick few Primal kills and then going back to crafting or gathering is none of these.

Look back to FFXI - there were whole Linkshells dedicated to different elements of play. Sea LS, Sky LS, HNM LS; while i'm verging on discussing breadth of content here rather then difficulty, each of these examples from the past were event based, they were challenging, they were time sinks, and totally enjoyable. This game is begging for more depth, and more challenging content. What's the point of introducing new NMs [around Turningleaf] and then making it possible for any 4 random people off the street able to defeat them. And then nerfing the stone-aquisition... There is no achievement in owning a Moogle weapon now because opening the chest just means you've farmed a few spriggans and got lucky.

Mhm. Now do take note, besides BCNM's, all of FFXI's content revolved around accomplishing something in a certain area before engaging the enemy. Dynamis was hard and took a lot of work to get to the last boss. So the idea of accomplishing it in 24 hours was nearly non-existant. It took people quite a while to figure out the best way to approach Dynamis. Even after years people still had it challenging, even when it was broken down into a science. I want FFXIV's content engaging like this. The problem with primals are that you have only a 5 minute window to wait to figure out how it works. If you had access to Dynamis Lord every 5 minutes, I am sure you could find a way to take him down within a day.

Overall, we are getting BCNM like fights in FFXIV, and we need content that helps make an event stretch out.

[Elexia]

Mhm. Now do take note, besides BCNM's, all of FFXI's content revolved around accomplishing something in a certain area before engaging the enemy. Dynamis was hard and took a lot of work to get to the last boss. So the idea of accomplishing it in 24 hours was nearly non-existant. It took people quite a while to figure out the best way to approach Dynamis. Even after years people still had it challenging, even when it was broken down into a science. I want FFXIV's content engaging like this. The problem with primals are that you have only a 5 minute window to wait to figure out how it works. If you had access to Dynamis Lord every 5 minutes, I am sure you could find a way to take him down within a day.

Overall, we are getting BCNM like fights in FFXIV, and we need content that helps make an event stretch out.

Even at 99 cap people are having problems taking down Arch Dynamis Lord. (Arch (boss) in Neo-Dynamis are a lot harder and not a zerg fest so yeah lol.) That was the good thing about it, because it actually made people think..in XIV? Content isn't varied enough yet to really promote that kind of strategic thinking, especially because people rather class stack than actually try and think of ways to do certain battles as a varied setup, look at the post about Puglist style, while that's still stacking basically, it at least tried something different.

They have to keep this game casual or people like Isaveron will cry because it'll be deemed a "time sink" if you can't do it in one sitting.

[Xianghua]

If you are going to bring XI's content in as a argument. You really shouldn't bring in the content from it's expansions. CoP was released 2 years after and RoTZ 1 year. And the game wasn't in a major redesign. Many of you confuse time with difficulty.

Yes more content is needed and challenging content is needed to. But to add ridiculous time sinks just to make content longer is not the answer. and certainly doesn't make it challenging.

Reasons why XI content lasted so long. Was time restrictions.

Dynamis-2x a week
Limbus-2x a week
Einherjar-2x a week
HNMs-1x a day-1x a week depending on nm
Salvage- 1x day
Sea/sky- Limited by pop items you had. and pop times on NMs.

Now add the multiple zones of each content and that is why it lasted. was a complete time sink. It wasn't hard or challenging. Take away all those restrictions and XI would of been a complete joke to complete.

Now lets do the same thing here. Lets say you could only enter ifrit/moogle/ once a day. It would take even the best players months to get all the weapons simply because of little time restrictions and only being able to do it 7x a week. As the game grows complete its redesign. and starts to focus on content and only content. We will most likely end up seeing these time seeks you guys want. But until then we just have to deal with what we have.

TL;DR: XI was nothing but a bunch of time restrictions and without them the game was "easy" to

[Elexia]

Reasons why XI content lasted so long. Was time restrictions.

Ignoring -

1. Limbus required you to go through multiple areas in order to fight the true bosses.
2. Dynamis was multiple zones with the overall goal to kill the Dynamis Lord, and as of now, the overall goal to kill the Arch versions.
3. Einherjar has multiple wings with the overall intention of fighting of Odin.
4. HNMs are popped and were never really content to begin with.
5. Salvage everyone did it at least twice a day if points allowed for it.
6. Sea/Sky wasn't long lasting due to "limited by pop items", it lasted long because you simply can't defeat all of the Gods, do Divine Might and Limbus in one sitting.

Even with them removing restrictions in the last year (time wise) and over the course of the last 4 years (in general) you still can't completely blow through everything in one sitting.

[Xianghua]

Ignoring -

1. Limbus required you to go through multiple areas in order to fight the true bosses.
2. Dynamis was multiple zones with the overall goal to kill the Dynamis Lord, and as of now, the overall goal to kill the Arch versions.
3. Einherjar has multiple wings with the overall intention of fighting of Odin.
4. HNMs are popped and were never really content to begin with.
5. Salvage everyone did it at least twice a day if points allowed for it.
6. Sea/Sky wasn't long lasting due to "limited by pop items", it lasted long because you simply can't defeat all of the Gods, do Divine Might and Limbus in one sitting.

Even with them removing restrictions in the last year (time wise) and over the course of the last 4 years (in general) you still can't completely blow through everything in one sitting.

Of course you don't understand.

Lets make it where no content in XI had the time restrictions like moogle/ifrit. that means you could do multiple dynamis's a day. multiple einherjar's a day. All sky nms had 5min pop timers. and waters/dio's dropped 100%. same with sea. and salvage could be done multiple times a day. Most

You would be able to complete all the content much faster. People would of been done with sky/dyna (- relics for most) before CoP even came out. people would have been done with limbus/sea before AU came out. ect.

Being able to do multiple runs in a day makes the content much shorter. people would be able to beat these bosses multiple times a day. getting the gear much quicker.

Edit: Example: Einherjar was 30mins long. 9 wings + odin. Most Ls's had mules where the only needed to do 3 wings to get to odin. with the way it is now. thats 1 odin per 4 runs. or 1 odin ever 2 weeks . Take away the time restrictions. 3 runs would take roughly 2 hours. so you could do odin easily once a day or more.

[AndySolace]

Lots

Ignoring....

Either way, you both make valid points. By defination, an event being difficult is not related to it duration or frequency. They are seperate things.

However, ensuring that a particular event has a time-sink element too it means it remains difficult for longer. Its absolutely true that the more shots you get at something, the more likely you are to hit the target eventually.

Adding a time-sink element to the current level of content would allow it to remain a challenge for a greater length of time, increase the sense of achievement that comes with success, actively promote teamwork and co-ordination*, and add a greater element of exclusivity to the rewards. People would feel they have aquired something that has an inherent rarity and status to it.

However, I do not in any way wish to see a constant stream of straightforward 10 minute events seperated by an extended "Available in: " countdown passed off as 'challenging' with regards to future content.

Xianghua, FFXI was not easy without the time-sinks. Have you forgotten the Challenges posed by the CoP missions? 30 cap Promy- Boss fights? Either way, The content that I'm requesting is not easy rubbish with 7 day intervals, I would like to see harder NMs, or upper-tier dungeons with highly ranked mobs with high attributes that you can't just run around all the time, and significantly harder quests >.>; Running around the globe talking to 14 npcs and watching a dialogue about flatbread is no fun for anyone.