Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Vstarstruck]

And you did not answer my question about savage gear. If P2W is only PVP in your opinion wouldnt that make such savage gear sellings fine? Since that would be for PVE content.

He did not answer me as well or even give a fitting reply to what I had to say. Maybe he knows it is P2W but does not want to admit it?

i can ask someone if the earth is flat and they say yes but i guess it's true because they believe it.

to counter your end part there what about mount collectors? or minion? emote? music notes? why must they pay more for their enjoyment?

because it doesn't matter.

I can't reply to this as it makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I said. I explained in full detail why this is P2W and yet you did not comment at all on that. You have a misguided prospective on how to define pay to win. You pay real money for advantage, that is exactly what retainers are.

" ff14 is the only game i have ever played with standards for p2w so low."

it is not a low standard, your paying for an advantage, that's pay to win, I do not see how one can debate otherwise, outside not understanding the idea it does not matter how little the MB impacts combat progression, it does not change the fact there is an advantage to pay for.

why are you guys giving me hypothetical questions to answer when i already explained what p2w is?

here is my question to you two also then is the best gear only obtainable in the cash shop? if not then it's not considered p2w.

Why are you ignoring points why we explained what p2w is? why are you ignoring facts? You do not want to answer those questions because answering them proves your point wrong.

secondly my second point was countering *why must people who only craft/gather pay more* to which i replied because it doesn't matter the only things that matter is the actual pve content and pvp content.

Wrong, they do not matter to you! omg you are just making me repeat what I said:

There are people that ONLY like to craft, ONLY like to make gil, because that is what they like to do, see how much they can get. If the MB in and itself was standlone (like not looking the effects it has to play content) it is pay to win. You are paying for a massive advantage over base sub. You are using REAL money to pay for an advantage, that is pay to win, that is what retainers are for this game, and even more so with the app release.

People with such likes DO NOT CARE about PvP and PvE. Why are you sitting here pretending what you like is the only thing that is important or matters? FFXIV is P2W for crafters/MB item flippers. How much that impacts PvP or PvE does NOT MATTER, you missed the point completely. If you are not going to be open to there are other things people find more important then your own,... why are you even here?

[Musashidon]

He did not answer me as well or even give a fitting reply to what I had to say. Maybe he knows it is P2W but does not want to admit it?

why are you guys giving me hypothetical questions to answer when i already explained what p2w is?

here is my question to you two also then is the best gear only obtainable in the cash shop? if not then it's not considered p2w.

now you can also get into the whole locking dungeons and trials and the actual game behind money and claim it p2w or something on that lines which i really don't want to get into since the whole theme of this thread is if i keep bring up enough hypthetical scenario's the person will trip up and will have to back track to try to defend what they said earlier.

I can't reply to this as it makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I said.

i countered the two points you threw at me which was *someone else may view it differently which makes you wrong* to which i replied people think the world is flat but they are wrong but with your thinking its right because they believe so.

secondly my second point was countering *why must people who only craft/gather pay more* to which i replied because it doesn't matter the only things that matter is the actual pve content and pvp content.

Why are you ignoring points why we explained what p2w is? why are you ignoring facts? You do not want to answer those questions because answering them proves your point wrong.

woah now calm down now don't need you linking me to another wikipedia page telling me it's facts.

actually i already explained your poor excuse of *if i force them to keep explaining semantic situations when they stop they lost the arguement* routine here.

why are you even here?

because of what the person i qouted the first time? which sadly for me was someone who wasn't actually looking for answers but baiting people to reply so i guess that's my bad.

but i do like how you completely ignored what i said but say i am ignoring you? see this circle it's pretty funny actually

crafters opinions matter even if they are the minority! actually if they are the minority it doesn't matter having more space has never been considered p2w in anygame i came from just this one AND there has been so little backlash on this forums be it NA or JP that the chances of it changing are little.

[Remedi]

Now 1 months before the new patch Yoshidas tells us about a new limited housing zone with huge prices..

This literally won't happen anymore since the many backlashes they've got in the past, it's also the reason why they don't list items/recipes on the patch notes anymore.
They've become very strict on the market, in a way even the kupo nuts, despite their controversial implementation, are a way to avoid you abusing the market too much, which is why they are limited to 1-2 day.
Now I don't know the full extent of the moogle coins and how they will be acquired, so I won't comment on it.
I can only say that I don't like either of them, but I've said it plenty of times already

That said I believe that when all is said and done we are just arguing on what is exactly bad on the the thing at hand, while beign pretty much on the same page that both the app and the retainers locked behind a paywall are bad for the games

[MomomiMomi]

OP most likely excessively hoards and wants more retainer storage but doesn't want to pay for said storage.

It would be nice if people would actually read the OP sometimes. Then you would know how wrong this statement is.

From the OP:

The retainers you pay for should just be there for inventory space, no MB listings, no ventures.

Nowhere there does it say to give retainers for free.


And...

why are you guys giving me hypothetical questions to answer when i already explained what p2w is?

You have said what p2w is, but you haven't said what it is not. Where is the line drawn? From your posts, I would say that you're using a false definition of p2w.

[RitsukoSonoda]

It would be nice if people would actually read the OP sometimes. Then you would know how wrong this statement is.

Requesting removal of features from retainers, leading to reduction or removal of cost of additional retainers. Some people apparently only look at a small square on the map and never view the entire thing. The basic idea is to start small to get that first compromise then try to push it as far as you can in hopes of getting the end goal you wanted in the first place.

[DarthRok]

I’d stop arguing and vote with your wallet. Both sides have very valid points. The cash shop hasn’t bothered me until recently with the ridiculously priced emote, items that go straight to cash shop, and expensive items that are not account wide. So I don’t buy them. Most things I have bought, have been on sale. I’ve splurged a few times to get my wife a little in game gift, but usually on sale.

I do understand the jump potions. They don’t bother me because most people use them for for alts. And those that use them to catch up to their friends to play don’t bother me either. My daughter started playing and I offered to jump her to 60 because I was dying to play with her, but she didn’t want to and wanted to do the story. So there are plenty of people that take that route. I get why they are offered, and I understand why some people don’t like them. I used one for an alt on another server so I could jump right in and have fun and visit from time to time and do newer content.

Now the retainer potions kind of bug me, however, you have to have the appropriate class already leveled to 60 or the potion is worthless. I used one, when I decided to change one of my retainers classes that was already at max lvl. Made it easier to switch, as I already maxed my gathering classes and had a max retainer. Again you have to have already leveled your botanist, miner, fisher, or battle class to 60, or it’s worthless. It doesn’t just give someone a lvl 60 miner if they haven’t played the class.

Extra retainers have never bothered me. As an omnicrafter, I need the space. But the advantages are minimal other than space. You have to level all your crafters and gatherers, not an easy feat. You still have to gather and craft the materials to fill those retainers which takes a lot of time. Keeping inventories organized, again takes time. Acquiring ventures for 9 retainers requires a lot of activity to maintain. Managing MB listings for 9 retainers takes a lot of time. Very few people are going to just throw money away by selling things for prices that aren’t worth the time or investment in materials to craft. The market demand really dictates the prices, and if fools want to throw money and their time away, that’s their problem. My daughter only wants 2retainers because she doesn’t want to invest the time in managing all of that. She’s not even to HW yet and has made almost 2 million on the MB from just good business sense and understanding supply and demand. The time it takes to manage all of that balances out some of the advantages.

I’ve always been able to compromise b/w the two ideals b/c SE was being reasonable. However, I believe the app, combined with the recent cash shop behavior has gone too far. I won’t touch the app and encourage people not to use it, especially the premium service. It’s just not worth it, and not worth supporting. If it was free and included in our present sub, I’d be ok with it.

[Ceallach]

This app is basically pay to win for Disciples of the Hand by manipulating the market boards better than anyone else based on how much real money you're willing to pay. If SE gets away with this, the implication is that you can eventually do things like buy raid gear through the app, get exclusive glamours through the app through a gatcha system, and so forth.

And this is for a game we already pay a monthly subscription to play.

This is downright evil, and I'm tempted to cancel my subscription now. The more money SE loses in response to this app, the more likely they are to listen, because everyone knows nobody cares about your opinions on these forums.

If you want an example on how bad this could get, check out ArcheAge.

[JohnnyDevo]

I'm still confused at what people think the "win" is at the other end of this "pay to win".

Even entertaining the idea that extra retainers increases your ability to make money, you're still not automatically getting the money. Even entertaining that the extra retainers are somehow an unfair advantage in the market...

...

What are you spending all that gil on? Pentamelding full HQ crafted gear? I manage that easy and I barely fill up my two retainers with my lazy approach to crafting sales.

There's a clear difference between "pay to win" and "pay for convenience". Battlefront II was a good example of "pay to win", where dumping cash into the game translated to a clear advantage of the core of that competitive-by-nature game.

Extra retainers and this new app is "pay for convenience". Yes, it's a form of monetization. Yes, it's a cash grab. But the truth is, and I've learned I apparently hold an unpopular view on this, a company making money on their product is not inherently evil.

If you look at the core gameplay aspects of the game, you have the story and the combat. If you look at the focus of the game's balance, you have the end-game. Does being able to list more items translate to becoming more powerful in the end-game? No, it buys you housing (not core gameplay) or gear that is, at best, 20 item levels below the best gear you can get by actually playing the game. And anyone who can take advantage of the extra retainers would be able to make that gear themselves in the first place.

There is nothing you can buy that gets you the best gear faster.
There is nothing you can buy that gets you a direct advantage over other players.
There is nothing you can buy that gets you anything any faster than what a base-subscription-payer can get.

What can you buy? cosmetics and convenience.

Yes, there is a line to be drawn. Yes, Square has found another way to monetize the game. No, they have not crossed the line. No, it is not mandatory. No, it is not something to grab your pitchforks about.

What would examples be of crossing the line? If they were to add a "pay 5 dollars a month to double your weekly tomes cap" subscription option. If they were to sell high level gear on the mogstation. If they were to take a feature we already enjoy and lock it behind a paywall.

I don't know if it's because they know there'd be huge backlash (battlefront II level) or if it's because yoship actually cares about the playerbase, but the fact is they haven't done any of those things. They haven't offered any pay to win advantages, and they haven't offered anything that affects the core gameplay that we have to pay money, other than the base subscription, for.

And this new app? Me and my FC are going to enjoy the heck out of the free version.

[KisaiTenshi]

What would examples be of crossing the line? If they were to add a "pay 5 dollars a month to double your weekly tomes cap" subscription option. If they were to sell high level gear on the mogstation. If they were to take a feature we already enjoy and lock it behind a paywall.

I don't know if it's because they know there'd be huge backlash (battlefront II level) or if it's because yoship actually cares about the playerbase, but the fact is they haven't done any of those things. They haven't offered any pay to win advantages, and they haven't offered anything that affects the core gameplay that we have to pay money, other than the base subscription, for.

The line was crossed exactly when they put the jump pots in the cash shop. But that's not the "I'm going to quit and play something else" line for most people because not everyone cares about those things. Main scenario skip, fine, that lets people catch up with their friends. Level all your jobs with pots? That just straight up told people that the amount of time you invested in these jobs was a waste. Weeks or Months of your time, into the rubbish bin. That's how you know those are P2W.

The retainers has always been a contentious issue because they gate off extra storage, and prior to glamours, and later the glamour plates, that was the only way to keep outfits and materials. So by adding a new outfit every level (one HQ and one green gear) some people get frustrated over having to throw away stuff that they spent hours trying to get.

The App appears to have been designed before the gachapon/lootbox controversy and subsequent rollback by North-American publishers. Yet we still see those mechanics in the game in the Eureka boxes and the PotD sacks. You can yell all you want about RNGesus, but the fact is these mechanics are exceptionally awful and lazy. It keeps players playing that content until they've farmed all the stuff they want from it, and in F2P games, burns people out. I much prefer the "tokens" from the raids, or even the tomes system over this RNG rubbish. But that discussion is going on in another thread. All RNGesus stuff is a way to keep people playing the skinner box. Gachapon/Lootboxes simply remove the actual gameplay and the act of spending real money is all the gameplay that really exists.

What SE really needs to do is decouple the inventory spaces of the retainers from the marketboard, and let all characters on that server share the inventory space of the retainers. That would put an end to the inventory problem for all but the most extreme crafters. The marketboard needs to be redesigned so that the amount of items you can sell is not connected to the number of retainers you have, but rather a common "storefront", and put whatever resource limiters on that itself. That would make things a hell of a lot less messy than having to open and close every retainer to adjust prices, refill inventory, etc.

And thus, that is where such an app would be useful, manage one unified storefront from the app as if it were a second screen.

[Nestama]

That just straight up told people that the amount of time you invested in these jobs was a waste. Weeks or Months of your time, into the rubbish bin.

Maybe for some people, but for me, jump potions never made me think I wasted my time levelling my jobs to 60. If anything, it gives me an advantage over those (newbies specifically) who did spend money, since I know how to play the Job.