Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[MomomiMomi]

OP most likely excessively hoards and wants more retainer storage but doesn't want to pay for said storage.

It would be nice if people would actually read the OP sometimes. Then you would know how wrong this statement is.

From the OP:

The retainers you pay for should just be there for inventory space, no MB listings, no ventures.

Nowhere there does it say to give retainers for free.


And...

why are you guys giving me hypothetical questions to answer when i already explained what p2w is?

You have said what p2w is, but you haven't said what it is not. Where is the line drawn? From your posts, I would say that you're using a false definition of p2w.

[RitsukoSonoda]

It would be nice if people would actually read the OP sometimes. Then you would know how wrong this statement is.

Requesting removal of features from retainers, leading to reduction or removal of cost of additional retainers. Some people apparently only look at a small square on the map and never view the entire thing. The basic idea is to start small to get that first compromise then try to push it as far as you can in hopes of getting the end goal you wanted in the first place.

[RaynerH]

if I ever get to the point where having more retainers is this important and I'm playing this game to virtually sell things feel free to kill me. I already work for a living in real life. I don't need that shit in my leisure time. This whole mb and retainer nonsense is for the birds but I guess to each their own.

[DarthRok]

I’d stop arguing and vote with your wallet. Both sides have very valid points. The cash shop hasn’t bothered me until recently with the ridiculously priced emote, items that go straight to cash shop, and expensive items that are not account wide. So I don’t buy them. Most things I have bought, have been on sale. I’ve splurged a few times to get my wife a little in game gift, but usually on sale.

I do understand the jump potions. They don’t bother me because most people use them for for alts. And those that use them to catch up to their friends to play don’t bother me either. My daughter started playing and I offered to jump her to 60 because I was dying to play with her, but she didn’t want to and wanted to do the story. So there are plenty of people that take that route. I get why they are offered, and I understand why some people don’t like them. I used one for an alt on another server so I could jump right in and have fun and visit from time to time and do newer content.

Now the retainer potions kind of bug me, however, you have to have the appropriate class already leveled to 60 or the potion is worthless. I used one, when I decided to change one of my retainers classes that was already at max lvl. Made it easier to switch, as I already maxed my gathering classes and had a max retainer. Again you have to have already leveled your botanist, miner, fisher, or battle class to 60, or it’s worthless. It doesn’t just give someone a lvl 60 miner if they haven’t played the class.

Extra retainers have never bothered me. As an omnicrafter, I need the space. But the advantages are minimal other than space. You have to level all your crafters and gatherers, not an easy feat. You still have to gather and craft the materials to fill those retainers which takes a lot of time. Keeping inventories organized, again takes time. Acquiring ventures for 9 retainers requires a lot of activity to maintain. Managing MB listings for 9 retainers takes a lot of time. Very few people are going to just throw money away by selling things for prices that aren’t worth the time or investment in materials to craft. The market demand really dictates the prices, and if fools want to throw money and their time away, that’s their problem. My daughter only wants 2retainers because she doesn’t want to invest the time in managing all of that. She’s not even to HW yet and has made almost 2 million on the MB from just good business sense and understanding supply and demand. The time it takes to manage all of that balances out some of the advantages.

I’ve always been able to compromise b/w the two ideals b/c SE was being reasonable. However, I believe the app, combined with the recent cash shop behavior has gone too far. I won’t touch the app and encourage people not to use it, especially the premium service. It’s just not worth it, and not worth supporting. If it was free and included in our present sub, I’d be ok with it.

[JohnnyDevo]

I'm still confused at what people think the "win" is at the other end of this "pay to win".

Even entertaining the idea that extra retainers increases your ability to make money, you're still not automatically getting the money. Even entertaining that the extra retainers are somehow an unfair advantage in the market...

...

What are you spending all that gil on? Pentamelding full HQ crafted gear? I manage that easy and I barely fill up my two retainers with my lazy approach to crafting sales.

There's a clear difference between "pay to win" and "pay for convenience". Battlefront II was a good example of "pay to win", where dumping cash into the game translated to a clear advantage of the core of that competitive-by-nature game.

Extra retainers and this new app is "pay for convenience". Yes, it's a form of monetization. Yes, it's a cash grab. But the truth is, and I've learned I apparently hold an unpopular view on this, a company making money on their product is not inherently evil.

If you look at the core gameplay aspects of the game, you have the story and the combat. If you look at the focus of the game's balance, you have the end-game. Does being able to list more items translate to becoming more powerful in the end-game? No, it buys you housing (not core gameplay) or gear that is, at best, 20 item levels below the best gear you can get by actually playing the game. And anyone who can take advantage of the extra retainers would be able to make that gear themselves in the first place.

There is nothing you can buy that gets you the best gear faster.
There is nothing you can buy that gets you a direct advantage over other players.
There is nothing you can buy that gets you anything any faster than what a base-subscription-payer can get.

What can you buy? cosmetics and convenience.

Yes, there is a line to be drawn. Yes, Square has found another way to monetize the game. No, they have not crossed the line. No, it is not mandatory. No, it is not something to grab your pitchforks about.

What would examples be of crossing the line? If they were to add a "pay 5 dollars a month to double your weekly tomes cap" subscription option. If they were to sell high level gear on the mogstation. If they were to take a feature we already enjoy and lock it behind a paywall.

I don't know if it's because they know there'd be huge backlash (battlefront II level) or if it's because yoship actually cares about the playerbase, but the fact is they haven't done any of those things. They haven't offered any pay to win advantages, and they haven't offered anything that affects the core gameplay that we have to pay money, other than the base subscription, for.

And this new app? Me and my FC are going to enjoy the heck out of the free version.

[KisaiTenshi]

What would examples be of crossing the line? If they were to add a "pay 5 dollars a month to double your weekly tomes cap" subscription option. If they were to sell high level gear on the mogstation. If they were to take a feature we already enjoy and lock it behind a paywall.

I don't know if it's because they know there'd be huge backlash (battlefront II level) or if it's because yoship actually cares about the playerbase, but the fact is they haven't done any of those things. They haven't offered any pay to win advantages, and they haven't offered anything that affects the core gameplay that we have to pay money, other than the base subscription, for.

The line was crossed exactly when they put the jump pots in the cash shop. But that's not the "I'm going to quit and play something else" line for most people because not everyone cares about those things. Main scenario skip, fine, that lets people catch up with their friends. Level all your jobs with pots? That just straight up told people that the amount of time you invested in these jobs was a waste. Weeks or Months of your time, into the rubbish bin. That's how you know those are P2W.

The retainers has always been a contentious issue because they gate off extra storage, and prior to glamours, and later the glamour plates, that was the only way to keep outfits and materials. So by adding a new outfit every level (one HQ and one green gear) some people get frustrated over having to throw away stuff that they spent hours trying to get.

The App appears to have been designed before the gachapon/lootbox controversy and subsequent rollback by North-American publishers. Yet we still see those mechanics in the game in the Eureka boxes and the PotD sacks. You can yell all you want about RNGesus, but the fact is these mechanics are exceptionally awful and lazy. It keeps players playing that content until they've farmed all the stuff they want from it, and in F2P games, burns people out. I much prefer the "tokens" from the raids, or even the tomes system over this RNG rubbish. But that discussion is going on in another thread. All RNGesus stuff is a way to keep people playing the skinner box. Gachapon/Lootboxes simply remove the actual gameplay and the act of spending real money is all the gameplay that really exists.

What SE really needs to do is decouple the inventory spaces of the retainers from the marketboard, and let all characters on that server share the inventory space of the retainers. That would put an end to the inventory problem for all but the most extreme crafters. The marketboard needs to be redesigned so that the amount of items you can sell is not connected to the number of retainers you have, but rather a common "storefront", and put whatever resource limiters on that itself. That would make things a hell of a lot less messy than having to open and close every retainer to adjust prices, refill inventory, etc.

And thus, that is where such an app would be useful, manage one unified storefront from the app as if it were a second screen.

[Nestama]

That just straight up told people that the amount of time you invested in these jobs was a waste. Weeks or Months of your time, into the rubbish bin.

Maybe for some people, but for me, jump potions never made me think I wasted my time levelling my jobs to 60. If anything, it gives me an advantage over those (newbies specifically) who did spend money, since I know how to play the Job.

[Vstarstruck]

Maybe for some people, but for me, jump potions never made me think I wasted my time levelling my jobs to 60. If anything, it gives me an advantage over those (newbies specifically) who did spend money, since I know how to play the Job.

Leveling a job don't teach you how to play. All those people with level 70 or even mentor? still need basic rotation advice. Jump potions is just a scape goat to something that was always a problem. The only thing I would liked to see is some kind of teaching for those that use it, but level cap content needs some kind of gating so you are not getting people with i283 or lower in gear slots because they cba to do the level 70 job quest that gives you gear and for most jobs an important ability.

lol number 1 they didn't say that you get a free retainer you just have the option to buy an additional one. More chocobo sack is cool but I still haven't even used up all my room for the 1st one. I haven't even used up room for my retainers. I have also been playing since 2013 with all jobs 60+ except SAM. I don't in the slightest think the premium is pay to win. Even if it did come with a free retainer. Still need to farm more for ventures or do hunts more for ventures >.> I get why the premium version of the app is garbo but it is not pay to win. We've have the option for 8 retainers for a long time and now we get some more you all get your panties in a bunch?

Do people just reply to the title or something? None of this addresses my point at all.

First off "lol number 1 they didn't say that you get a free retainer you just have the option to buy an additional one. " This is an insanely arrogant tone to a claim that was never made. Also as far as we know, we do not know if it is an extra 5 dollars or 7, it was not clear. That is not the point. The point is this P2W app gives you another retainer in some form.

Second, what is the point in stating what you got leveled and how long you have been playing for? How does this "experience" matter if you think if it is pay to win or not? Also stating it like this means you are missing my point. I am not talking about the impacts of combat, for some reason people think that is all that matters. I care about the MB's stability and it is not fair someone can spend tons of money for spam undercuts to Pay to win the MB. Then when you look at retainer cost, it is insane to have a sub on top of a sub (8 retainers = sub) then have a new sub on top of that with mircotranstions that push PtW concept further when it comes to the MB system as standlone. Also people do sell runs for gil so how is that not P2W anyway? (getting extra income due to extra retainers then paying a group to clear ex trials, savage etc?)

That last sentence is a bit off point but the main thing is, if you look at the MB as its own system and letting rich people spam undercutting, how is it not pay to win? You pay RL money for an advantage, that is pay to win. It is invalid to say "it is not pay to win" "MB does not matter for progression" is not a defense, you are still paying real money that impacts gameplay balance, thus it fits how one defines pay to win.

[Nestama]

Leveling a job don't teach you how to play. All those people with level 70 or even mentor? still need basic rotation advice. Jump potions is just a scape goat to something that was always a problem. The only thing I would liked to see is some kind of teaching for those that use it, but level cap content needs some kind of gating so you are not getting people with i283 or lower in gear slots because they cba to do the level 70 job quest that gives you gear and for most jobs an important ability.

I mostly mean that by levelling the Job from 1-60, I had the time to ease into the rotation the game was setting me up to do for end-game (I learned that using Fire III as a regular spell is wrong back in the day, just as an example). I didn't suddenly feel overwhelmed as I imagine newbies may feel when they use a jump potion.

I'm ashamed to say it took me up until level 69 to learn that Samurai does actually have (slight) positionals. Whoops.

[RokkuEkkusu]

IDC really. If a crafter/gatherer has some OCD of undercutting by one gil or by massive, it is ultimately up to the buyers of the Market Boards to entertain these people with purchases and stuff. This is the case regardless if there is an app or no app.

It really doesn't affect me much anyway since I don't need/want to use an app to maintain my inventory and retainers. I am fine just with the items, glam, and housing stuff I have right now.