Hypothetical Summoner Rebuild

[Sinh119]

I appreciate the effort that has gone into this post, but I honestly don't take issue with the current iteration of Summoner. The aesthetics for pets could be improved, but in terms of my enjoyment of the class it's in a pretty solid place. That said, I wouldn't attempt to make Summoner more pet focused without significantly improving the current AI, because pets in this game are ostensibly little more than DOT's, and DOT's that are less effective than regular ones at that. I can not imagine the nightmare that AI balancing would be in order to make every different pet feel responsive enough in order to be satisfying to use. I honestly just don't believe that the current pet AI is sophisticated enough for a job to be focused around it.

[ChaoticCrimson]

Yeah, I'm more or less fine with SMN as it is right now. The only things I might think to ask for would be more Egi glamours and also maybe allow the option to set each pet action to either "manual" or "auto" instead of just a simple all-or-nothing with Sic/Obey. Like, say for Ifrit-Egi if I wanted to keep the majority of his actions on "auto", but wanted to keep Radiant Shield on "manual" so I could deploy it for specific mechanics, like the Demonic Howl in O6S. Better still would be to add a priority system on auto-actions too so you can somewhat customize the AI to your liking (and make a semi-auto option viable), but one thing at a time I suppose. Probably more than we can hope for at this point, but I can dream...

[artlessknave]

I liked the idea of a DOT heavy pet commander, with some basic healing, tactician. thats why I picked arcanist to start with. they removed like 3 DOTS, so now its a blm. except 1/2 its damage AND utility is tied to the 60 sec cooldown aetherflow, with like 6 abilities being chained to that cooldown, and useless without it. so if you misclick, poof, thats it, you pretty much sit there doing nothing.
you cant heal (heals like .001% of health for 30% mp)
you can barely dps without dreadworm...but you spend 80% of dreadworm time waiting for GCD
you get one pet choice
you have to spread dots for AOE...but you cant do that more than every 60 secs

I dont think a rebuild is needed. I think even something as simple as making it so you can have aetherflow and aethertrail stacks concurrently, like before, would help alot.
jack of no trades, master of swearing-cuz-you-forgot-you-already-had-2-aethertrail-and-wasted-aetherflow-cooldown and now cant really do anything

[Sunako]

I think main problem is long recast time and queue system from the pet. If they would nerf potency and reduce recast time, pet would work more smoothly. Using contagion feels clunky because you have to wait 3 sec after wind blade. Halve potency and halve recast time would probably fix that issue.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

I think main problem is long recast time and queue system from the pet. If they would nerf potency and reduce recast time, pet would work more smoothly. Using contagion feels clunky because you have to wait 3 sec after wind blade. Halve potency and halve recast time would probably fix that issue.

Honestly, if the cast times on Pets are what's causing the clunkiness, then they need to get rid of the cast times.

But I don't think that's the only issue. I've noticed a significant portion of the time that Demi-Bahamut won't use Akh Morn if I use Enkindle Bahamut at 3s or less remaining on the Bahamut timer or if I'm moving, and both Bahamut and Ifirit/Garuda/Titan won't cast while moving, even if they're technically in range to do so, so I think it's more of "Pet AI is shit and needs to be reworked."

[Wayfinder3]

That skill can't be on a dps, or in this game, raising 3 people at once is absolutely nuts, there is a reason why lb3 heal has to be earned.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

That skill can't be on a dps, or in this game, raising 3 people at once is absolutely nuts, there is a reason why lb3 heal has to be earned.

EDIT: That's my bad, I wrote my intentions on that poorly. Was supposed to be a target and up to two other targets within 5y.

[Grimoire-M]

I personally would rather see SMN reworked into its own job if people insist on it being a pet class so much. Imo the HW iteration of the class was the best it has ever been, and Bahamut should have been an extension of DWT rather than what SE forced it to be in Stormblood. Still, I gave this a lengthy read, so here's my breakdown:


Overall Thoughts:

• You're adding a lot of abilities at each level. I get that some are pet abilities or are long restrictive cooldowns but you still need to rein it in.
  
• There's a lot of TP/MP regeneration/healing that is frankly unnecessary and can be done way better in other ways.
  
• Big Cooldowns Are Big. Dealing comically low personal/filler damage to make up for this does not make the sheer spike damage better in any way. The numbers need rethinking, plain and simple.
  
• Where are the AoE reductions? Good rule of thumb: if it’s over 200 potency and hits more than one target, reduce its damage by 10-20% per additional target to a minimum of 40-50%. It’s a standard now.
  
• Don’t get why so many cooldowns have cast times. They’re not spells, and they just make this class clunky for no good reason. I guess it’s a balancing factor but it’s a terrible one.
  
• You're making some big assumptions regarding what it would take to make this class work. The amount of double weaving you expect makes it clear this class is broken in some fundamental ways. Engine limitations literally prevent this from working without fundamentally ripping the game apart and rebuilding it from the ground up. I have to set this point aside just to begin analyzing the rest of the class at all.

Regarding Summons:

• It's a good thing that you split it into AoE, Single Target, Tank pets.
  
• I do not get why you're making pets use their old auto-cast abilities and expecting them to know what combos and priorities are. This is what Evoke should do. Re-balance their damage accordingly. If you want to make full use of the old Ruin line, make it proc each of these abilities. That would actually be somewhat interesting, albeit a repeat what melee classes do.
  
• The Summon spells really should be instant oGCD abilities that retain their MP cost given what you're doing with them.
• Ifrit gives Black Mages a seriously broken buff that you really need to address by making it increase its own damage instead of the enemy.
  
• Lighting Armor/Windfall need to go. This game does not handle evasion well. Change these effects to something else. I don’t really agree with keeping Radiant Shield/Whorl Shield staying either. Nor is Earthen Ward/Frost Armor good. Recommend removing all of these entirely since I assume they’re all on the same button. Or add phys/magic vul up in AoE/Single Target variants and phys/magic mitigation for the tank pets. Way simpler.
  
• Add damage reduction to the tank pets. Glacier Bash/Landslide would be perfect for this. Make them lean into magic/physical damage more respectively so there’s something to actually distinguish them. As is they’re pointless.

Regarding Player Abilities/Traits:

• Evoke: Hilariously weak, but the fact it makes your pet auto with you is good. This I approve of, almost. Glad it's instant because there is a LOT of weaving on this class. Main problem with this ability is you're spamming it all the time with little to no variation beyond the pets themselves.
  
• Purify: I guess an extra pet cure and more MP for them is nice, considering they're the real aggro generators here. That's...on a 30s CD? Why???
  
• Command: This is your Fester/Painflare stand in. Fair enough. It’s also paradoxically on a 10s cooldown again, as are many of your aetherflow abilities. You do realize that because of the lower cooldown on Purify you’ve just made the class even harder for no real reason, right?
  
• Trance: Okay...so these are just stances. Would be nice if Ramuh/Levi swapped these around so you had a choice of what to use and didn't double up on the same one during Twin Summon. Don't tie this to the summon spells either. That's just a massive waste of MP. Just make it a passive ability that grants bonuses based on what pets are out. Or remove it. It’s kind of a do-nothing tbh.
  
• Painflare: I do not see the point in having this when you could just lower the cooldown on Command and remove all the DoT components on the Commands pets use. Personal Potency trumps pet potency in most cases so this just becomes the go-to ability compared to every Command you use as-is. If it's just for weaving to get rolling then Enkindle covers that.
  
• Invigorate/Infuse: Okay so these are DoT stand-ins, lacks the complexity that DoTs normally had in theory, and is somehow clunkier in practice if you had to target your pet, but okay. I can't tell if Infuse is actually useless or good. It's so contingent on how the engine performs that I'm inclined to say it's horrible in its current state. Also please make them do some personal damage and apply to all non-elder summons out. It makes way more sense than doing literally nothing for a GCD.
  
• Enkindle: This is the Energy Drain replacement that we really didn't need. I guess it's cool that it lets you charge up your pets stats but it's not worth an Aetherflow stack outside of pre-pull or death.
  
• Unleash: Current day Enkindle on a lower cooldown, because we needed more of those. I’d approve of this change in the current kit over the proc we got tbh.
  
• Aether Shift: I kinda approve of this in theory, but it basically breaks the entire class in half. Refresh Rouse/Spur/Infuse/Invigorate AND maintain Enkindle stacks AND I can swap my Egi? This is a lot of hidden power you're putting into this ability.
  
• Primal Trance: DWT but for pets. Would be fine if Animate wasn't reset in your current setup. I'd complain about the short duration but that might be one of the few balancing factors. Really not good imo.
  
• Invoke: Deathflare with flavor.
  
• Rebind: Good idea in theory, practically useless in combat until you have Astral Flow. Gets you up fast I suppose. Glad you put in the fixed version of Aether Shift in though.
  
• Rouse/Spur: Honestly these would be fine if they couldn't be spread around/refreshed. You need to add clauses saying so if that’s your intent. Badly.
  
• Animate: I get that this is essentially Tri-disaster but god why. The clipping you cause would be really horrible if not for Aether Shift letting you completely ignore that entirely.
  
• Astral Flow: Had to look at each pet ability but just looking at the numbers tells me this is way too high. Tank pets do not need a 20% party damage reduction ability either with Aether Barrier existing. Make that effect self only, if anything. The only nice thing is the immediate sacrifice makes aggro concerns trivial and its cooldown makes it almost fair, but I’d honestly rather the numbers were lowered on both, moreso on the damage side of it.
  
• Aether Overdrive: Weird combination of what I assume is meant to be Mana Shift/Old Devotion/Blood for Blood that also is supposed to be Trick Attack...but also it kills your raid? This ability makes no sense. I get what it's trying to do but it's bad and/or broken. Specify Ally/Enemy/Pet and split up the effects.
  
• Aether Barrier: This is less offensive than Invoke Phoenix, but not even the support classes have direct ally healing abilities, and RDM only has it for flavor. HoT is not necessary at all. Damage reduction would suffice and its cooldown could be lowered in that case. Devotion honestly does this fine already. Make it an instant ability because it will literally never see use outside of invul phases otherwise.
  
• Akh Morn: Okay…I guess we’re bahamut now? Just straight up? This honestly feels incredibly out of place. If I hadn’t seen there were more of these later on I would expect it to be tied to Bahamut himself, but…it’s not.
  
• Invoke Phoenix: Get the idea, but it does not fit this game at all. Even with RDM existing this is too much. Even with the small AoE it's too much. You do not add an AoE res willy nilly when the game isn't balanced around it, however conditional it is.
  
• Twin Summon: Another nice concept that also breaks like half of the pet abilities in your kit. I get that you use this to justify Summon IV/V/VI but why have it at all? It baffles me that you'd add another Aether Shift that lets you sustain all of those buffs even longer. I'll be gracious and assume you can't Astral Flow/Aether Shift this pet too, cause seriously you can almost keep those buffs up 100% of the time with this if you could.
  
• Energize: Why is this a thing? It's only going to be useful on tanks 90% of the time and in the cases a healer or DPS needs it you're probably going to get them killed. If you're pre-planning around raid damage to make this useful for healers then you probably don't need it in the first place considering SMN can sustain mana shift on cooldown as-is.
  
• Megaflare/Zantetsuken/Divine Judgement: These should not be available until the Elder primals are. I’m assuming Akh Morn is an exception, because these are simply ridiculous if they’re meant to be base abilities. Most likely this has to do with that trait, Elder Primal Aether, right?
  
• Master and Servant: Finally a reason to care about spell speed.

Regarding Elder Summons:

• This is just excessive at this point. Bahamut is hilariously redundant due to the numbers too.
• Getting these guys rolling even faster is not the way to balance this class.

Regarding Egi-Glamour models:

• Yes.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

I personally would rather see SMN reworked into its own job if people insist on it being a pet class so much. Imo the HW iteration of the class was the best it has ever been, and Bahamut should have been an extension of DWT rather than what SE forced it to be in Stormblood. Still, I gave this a lengthy read, so here's my breakdown:

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. Like I said, I'm not a mathematician or a theorycrafter so this kind of feedback is pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

[Grimoire-M]

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. Like I said, I'm not a mathematician or a theorycrafter so this kind of feedback is pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

Sorry if it came off overly sassy. I overthink things at 4-8am. It was fun to really dig into though. Hope it points you in the right direction!