Level Sync needed ASAP!

[Coglin]

If you pinheads insist to equate FFXIV to FFXI mechanics go ahead. If you want to argue about FFXI lets take it over to the XI forums.

I'm talking about the future of XIV here.

You lost me here, Nero quoted you multiple times, most of which your using FFXI to justify why we need this in FFXIV. Then you want to call other pinheads?

So how are you looking out for XIV's future? By implimenting bad ideas? Genious.

You BS is pilled high and your hipocricy rivals that of Congress. Congratulations.

[Rhomagus]

You lost me here, Nero quoted you multiple times, most of which your using FFXI to justify why we need this in FFXIV. Then you want to call other pinheads?

So how are you looking out for XIV's future? By implimenting bad ideas? Genious.

You BS is pilled high and your hipocricy rivals that of Congress. Congratulations.

To truly be honest you were "lost" on his viewpoint since you entered the discussion. You were/are never going to submit that level sync should be implemented and there is no amount of evidence that could be given to change your opinion. To claim otherwise would be disingenuous.

If I remember correctly, when ChiefCurahee was quoting XI he was doing so in response to someone else's claims about XI. Naturally XI will be quoted because that is where level sync was created but posters on both sides sometimes fail to take into account the different mechanics that governed XI and XIV. When one is arguing for or against level sync's implementation in XIV, they need to take into account the different mechanics that are already in place for both games.

Here's an example of a weak argument from level sync supporters:

We should include level sync right now because it worked so well in XI.

This argument doesn't necessarily fail, it just fails to offer substantial evidence for it's claim. You'd have to show why it worked in XI and you'd have to show how it applies differently to XIV. Anyone wanting to counterpoint would cite exploitation in the current framework of XIV, and I would agree with them to an extent even being a level sync advocate myself. With the current PL system in place it would be much too simple to exploit the system to at least 10 levels below cap. In general I really don't care what others do, how they level, or how fast they get there but this would open up the game to RMT too much in my opinion.

Before level sync is introduced I'm strongly in favor of reworking of the claiming/experience system. Claiming I'm not too worried about it's mainly who is rewarded for it and how.

Here's a weak argument for level sync detractors:

Everyone would just gain levels too quickly and exploit the system and they'd be noobs at high level. In XI you just had to form a skill up party so it was useless anyways

It is untrue that "everyone" would do so. The system is available to everyone but isn't necessarily geared towards everyone. It's mainly for people who are just starting out or for people that can't feasibly form a group in their level range because there is too small of a pool of party seekers to choose from.

Gaining levels too quickly is a moot point as powerlevel already exists. This argument would also have to call for the tweaking of the current claiming/experience system in order for it to be substantial.

Inexperienced or unskilled players will always exist at high level. Each individual is different, but there is no accrual of skill points like there was in XI so being underleveled due to skill is an unnecessary point as it doesn't exist in XIV.

Whether you think the leveling curve, time spent to reward ratio, or party mechanics are imbalanced are better made as separate arguments. Level sync and it's implementation is about bringing people of different walks on their own path together.

I'm for the intermingling of populations in an MMO while still maintaining a progression mechanic.

I'm against cutting off new players from sharing their first hand experiences with the established base.

[Coglin]

Okay Rhomagus, I see what your geting at. Where I took issue was that there was an example givin and explaination attepting to justify allowing level sync to let players sync up to higher levels.

And other MMOs do sync people up to common levels, look at SW:TOR's PvP. everyone is sync'd to max level for PVP (stats only)
And I believe AoC allowed you to bolster a person to your level

That is an aspect of level sync I will never be able to agree to. I am completely against level sync in general. This is what he said. It was not his point, and he did not appear to support it, yet he went on to defend it as well as offer examples he assumed would defend it. Thats where I became "lost", and no where else.

As far as the claiming system goes. I for one, like it they way it is now, at least over its previous form. It allows more then one party to participate in a fight together. As it stand now its the only way to have more then 8 players do anything. The change I would like to see, perhaps, is being able to link parties. Perhaps calling the expanded group a raid party, the name is kind of irrelavent to the point. I simply prefere to be capable to have more in the in game action then I do in the average party.

[ChiefCurrahee]

And other MMOs do sync people up to common levels, look at SW:TOR's PvP. everyone is sync'd to max level for PVP (stats only)
And I believe AoC allowed you to bolster a person to your level

That is an aspect of level sync I will never be able to agree to. I am completely against level sync in general. This is what he said. It was not his point, and he did not appear to support it, yet he went on to defend it as well as offer examples he assumed would defend it. Thats where I became "lost", and no where else.

Coglin, you truly have selective reading.

I even replied to your post, and said no I wasn't suggesting that people be brought UP in level, that sync should only work in bringing Higher players DOWN.

let me find the response for you so you don't have to

Wait, are you suggesting that a sync should allow players to play a higher level then they have earned, just so they can XP with higher levels.....Talk about a failed idea.

No, thats not what i was suggesting.

Mychael was suggesting that everyone sync with a lv 12 since it was the lowest in the search. I was suggesting that you could target any of those people as a sync (only sync down to a level, not sync up)

And other MMOs do sync people up to common levels, look at SW:TOR's PvP. everyone is sync'd to max level for PVP (stats only)
And I believe AoC allowed you to bolster a person to your level

I pointed out some games use "Bolster" to allow lower level people to play with higher levels. I never suggested that XIV "Bolster" I'm campaigning for "Level Sync" to math higher level players to lower level players.

so once again.

No, That's not what I was suggesting.
No, That's not what I was suggesting.
[SIZE="5"]No, That's not what I was suggesting.[/SIZE]

[Rokien]

are you sure?

[Skies]

Coglin, i'm curous. Why do you so voraciously disagree with synching up? I mean, I have good experiences in City of Heroes with Sidekicking (synching up), but I know i'm not omniscient or anything, so i'm curious as to your reasons. Perhaps you're thinking of it working in a way different than it did there (there are, after all, great differences in the way both games work and one might lean itself more to that sort of thing while the other does not)

[Coglin]

Coglin, i'm curous. Why do you so voraciously disagree with synching up? I mean, I have good experiences in City of Heroes with Sidekicking (synching up), but I know i'm not omniscient or anything, so i'm curious as to your reasons. Perhaps you're thinking of it working in a way different than it did there (there are, after all, great differences in the way both games work and one might lean itself more to that sort of thing while the other does not)

How does it work that I could be mistaken in? Its not in game yet, so your or anyone elses way of "thinkng of it working" a a certain way or the other is no more or less valid then mine.......See what I am saying?

My reasoning though, well for one, I am against anything that artificially changes a players level for any reason, plain and simple, its just how I feel. I mean you can solo level with leves and hit max level as fast as you can in most MMOs with a full group for 8 hours a day. Also I dislike the issues it could cause. For example, if a 50 PGL scales down in a level sync to run with a level 20 THM. From what I understand everyones take on the idea is that it should now become a 20 PGL. Do we allow the 20 PGL to keep the 50 traits and Abilities? How does that fit into lore?

[Rhomagus]

Okay Rhomagus, I see what your geting at. Where I took issue was that there was an example givin and explaination attepting to justify allowing level sync to let players sync up to higher levels.




That is an aspect of level sync I will never be able to agree to. I am completely against level sync in general. This is what he said. It was not his point, and he did not appear to support it, yet he went on to defend it as well as offer examples he assumed would defend it. Thats where I became "lost", and no where else.

As far as the claiming system goes. I for one, like it they way it is now, at least over its previous form. It allows more then one party to participate in a fight together. As it stand now its the only way to have more then 8 players do anything. The change I would like to see, perhaps, is being able to link parties. Perhaps calling the expanded group a raid party, the name is kind of irrelavent to the point. I simply prefere to be capable to have more in the in game action then I do in the average party.

I've never played SWTOR but if I've heard correctly the level sync up feature in that is very controlled and only used in PvP. There are ways to make a level sync up system work but stats would have to be more dependent on gear.

I would only be for a level sync up feature if the context with which it could be used was heavily controlled. I could see a level sync up in tandem with a training area within free-company residences being a useful tool for new members on company tactics or for future boss battles.

I would not approve of a level sync up feature for legitimate character progression though.

I'm okay with the claiming system to an extent. I love how anyone can help you finish a mob. I don't like how a high level can turn all the mobs in an area purple then disband, keeping legitimate level parties from progressing. I've seen it being abused from a personal standpoint too many times for me to fully support it and I think level sync would be a more appropriate way to help as you can't really grief someone with level sync but you can grief people with the current claiming system.

I think all you'd have to do with that though is change the experience/drop reward potential from the beginning of the fight instead of the end of the fight. Instead of the game reading that you "killed x amount of x level mobs" it'll take into account that you "fought and defeated x amount of x level mobs with a level spread amongst party members of x throughout the fight."

This way, the game would keep track of who was in your party when you started the fight, the levels they were, and the relative difficulty of the mobs in comparison to the party makeup to track experience rewards and loot privileges.

I would prefer the claim system make these changes prior to level sync's implementation but those are just my hopes.

[Rhomagus]

There are strong arguments for both sides of the debate as well, with their counterpoints to match but I still throw my chips in with the level-sync advocates.

Strong Argument for level-sync:

SE has started to charge for subscriptions. Many old players have left as the game is self admittedly still not up to even SE's standards. Those who have stayed are of a high level and are clamoring for more endgame content. New players who are just signing on to explore the world pre 2.0 are welcomed to a barren low level environment. There is lack of a carrot so to speak. This is especially true if they start in one of the satellite cities like Gridania or Limsa Lominsa. Group cohesion and general comradery are almost non-existant when players begin the game. These players are left with a bad and inaccurate impression of XIV and may never come back to give 2.0 a second chance.

If SE is going to charge for subscriptions they should begin to focus on more possibilities to retain new players. A lot of people are clamoring for a new MMO and XIV is high up on a lot of people's list despite it's initial launch. Having level sync during the paid subscription period would help retain new players by taking advantage of the game's entire playerbase, which is abysmally low due to shedding subscriptions waiting on 2.0, bad press, and the lack of a hook from the beginning of the game.

Current players could still invite their friends who haven't quite made the leap yet, and provide a tour of what XIV could be without them telling their friends "Well you're on your own until 40." Instead of holding their hands the whole way through, they can journey with them side by side as equal comrades. Beginners who just got started and got a handle on the search party feature could mingle with players of all levels and still overcome challenges with a group even if they don't have a friend already playing the game. This also wouldn't require them to choose "the right server" as they'd be more likely to come across at least someone capable of playing with them.

Admittedly, the strongest argument that I've noticed so far against level sync is the counterpoint to the above argument.

SE is absolutely floored with implementing features and keeping their current playerbase amused. They've already skimped on charging the full amount for a subscription fee and implementing level-sync is not only absent from the "Road to 2.0" but by extension would be detracting from development resources. We've heard the "They have different teams" argument before. In this particular case, the player base and the develop team has a set and defined path to the future and it's written in the "Road to 2.0" pdf. Anything that isn't included in that roadmap would, by objective evidence, be detracting resources (i.e. time) from whatever team is in charge of such things, not to mention level sync effects multiple teams; off the top of my head: UI, Battle, and Tutorial teams.

It has already been determined that level sync will be implemented in V 2.0. Despite SE charging for subscriptions they really need to stick to their promises before they can regain our trust. This concept can be quoted from Naoki Yoshida himself in some media interviews he made when it was confirmed he was going to be the new producer.

SE needs to stay the course, because if they don't regain trust, V 2.0 will be all for naught.

Level sync can wait, because it has to.

As strong as this argument may be, it still isn't compelling enough to keep level sync out of the game permanently. It's also of my own opinion that 2.0 needs to ship with level sync in place so that the influx of subscribers are used to it being there as a key component to the game and players are less enamored with exploiting a new feature later on down the road.

I could make supporting arguments as to why it should have been in there from the start but a lot of things should have been in there from the start.

[Skies]

How does it work that I could be mistaken in? Its not in game yet, so your or anyone elses way of "thinkng of it working" a a certain way or the other is no more or less valid then mine.......See what I am saying?

Oh, yeah. I did not ever want to mention anyone knowing how it'd work in XIV at all (i'm not native to english, sometimes I fail hard at it). I just meant that the way you believe it might work is different from how I've seen it work in City of Heroes, is all.

My reasoning though, well for one, I am against anything that artificially changes a players level for any reason, plain and simple, its just how I feel. I mean you can solo level with leves and hit max level as fast as you can in most MMOs with a full group for 8 hours a day. Also I dislike the issues it could cause. For example, if a 50 PGL scales down in a level sync to run with a level 20 THM. From what I understand everyones take on the idea is that it should now become a 20 PGL. Do we allow the 20 PGL to keep the 50 traits and Abilities? How does that fit into lore?

Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification.