The Unofficial "Why is this still a thing" Thread

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Then the problem is not about piercing debuff, but about the native DPS of DRG vs other melee ones. If you have more utility, you shouldn't do more damage by yourself.
For example, if BRD or MCH had the piercing debuff, you'd still take a DRG over a NIN on personal DPS alone and end with the same meta.

Actually, there's a good chance MNK fights DRG for its spot in the meta where piercing given to BRD/MCH. Regardless, it would make groups far more willing to accept another melee. People complain all the time about statics wanting DRG/NIN. It isn't simply meta that promotes that mindset but the fact if they have a physical range, DRG adds 250-300 DPS to their group by merely existing; double if they have both.

I'd rather have ppl stop overblowing imbalances in the game especially when most of the playerbase don't even play meta jobs correctly as the balance discord have discovered in their tanks analysis

Nothing has been overblown. I criticised a design per the thread's purpose and it sparked a discussion. For once, meta has very little to do with the criticism.

It wasn't addressed to you

My apologies then.

[Remedi]

Nothing has been overblown. I criticised a design per the thread's purpose and it sparked a discussion. For once, meta has very little to do with the criticism.

It wasn't addressed to you

[DarkDedede]

"Exp Challenges" from the Challenge Log giving no alternative when the player is at the maximum level.

Would be grand if these challenges worked similar to the Beast Tribe quests, or roulettes, where if the player could no longer receive exp, there was an alternative reward for completing the challenge.

This would also mitigate the annoyance of unintentionally completing an exp challenge with an unintended class set (in other words, getting 0 exp applied to the wrong class).

The alchemist of Eorzea having yet to figure out a recipe for Waterproof Cotton

All the fish of Hydaelyn desynthing into fine sand

Tome rings being unique, so you can only purchase one.

The key material for the desynth reset books being locked behind outdated content, two expansions old, with no alternate method to obtain the item

The sheer volume of materials being produced by airship ventures, and all that material being useless, for various reasons, but still useless.

Getting rubber from desynthing a high level piece of gear

Glamour restrictions for non combat classes

[Tridus]

that's not entirely correct. money may play a role... but they answered to a question regarding voice acting in a live letter back in 2014. that was about hildibrand quests, but i guess it's mostly true for other cut scenes as well:

they are working on the scenes until short before the patch releases and simply don't have the time to voice act them (in all the different languages).

Yep. They also said recently that for voice acted stuff, the scripts and voice acting are done months in advance of release. It's not something you can do at the last minute unless every voice actor in every language is in house and always available (which just isn't how things work with professional voice actors).

[Dualgunner]

It doesn't matter how it's done, it's still raid utility.

Then I repeat the question I had to Gunks to you: how much utility is too much, when DRG outdoes NIN in both raid and personal dps? Should dragoon be nerfed to the point it's almost as weak sans BRD/MCH as BRD/MCH is sans DRG?

Then the problem is not about piercing debuff, but about the native DPS of DRG vs other melee ones. If you have more utility, you shouldn't do more damage by yourself.
For example, if BRD or MCH had the piercing debuff, you'd still take a DRG over a NIN on personal DPS alone and end with the same meta.

First I assume "DRG over a MNK" or "DRG over a SAM", not "DRG over a NIN" since DRG+NIN is the meta.

Second, Dragoon as a whole is an issue. Its strong pDPS in addition to its insane rDPS lead it to pulling the whole physical meta together.
If BRD/MCH had the piercing buff, you'd be able to take a different melee, say, a SAM or a MNK, instead of DRG and not completely gimp one of your ranged DPS for damage.
If piercing were removed entirely, we'd more likely see MCH vanish from the meta before DRG would because DRG's crit buffs would still stack with BRD's passive crit and Chain from SCH, whereas all MCH offers is hypercharge every two minutes.

[GunksFoy]

snip

It's not a core part of their damage though. That's like saying Contagion is a core part of a Black Mages damage. It is a core part of Dragoon's damage, but it is additional damage for a bard or machinist. They are support jobs. And if Fflogs is to be believed, Machinists already outdps Dragoons at virtually every percentile, so I don't think a support job needs any more pDPS.

snip

As I already explained to you, Dragoon does not have more utility than a Ninja. With dual ranged yes, because optimal synergy. But if there are no ranged in the party, a Ninja blows Dragoon away in total DPS. Besides that, Dragoon's pDPS is middling at best. Only just above Ninja at nearly every percentile.

[Dualgunner]

As I already explained to you, Dragoon does not have more utility than a Ninja. With dual ranged yes, because optimal synergy. But if there are no ranged in the party, a Ninja blows Dragoon away in total DPS. Besides that, Dragoon's pDPS is middling at best. Only just above Ninja at nearly every percentile.

Don't underestimate Litany and Dragonsight. They're both very powerful in their own right, and aggro manip is only so useful.

Have you been doing these comparisons on hirokuapp btw? Fflogs doesn't say rDPS.

[GunksFoy]

Don't underestimate Litany and Dragonsight. They're both very powerful in their own right, and aggro manip is only so useful.

Have you been doing these comparisons on hirokuapp btw? Fflogs doesn't say rDPS.

No, I was comparing pDPS, as you keep claiming Dragoon has "huge pDPS" as well as rDPS. Dragon Sight and Litany are quite good. But Sight is a 5% buff to ONE person every 120s. Trick Attack is a 10% buff to the entire party every 60s. Then, as I mentioned, Ninja also has the slashing debuff which is guaranteed to buff 3 party members at minimum. No matter the comp (standard comps only, not counting single tank). You could have 3 Casters and a Ninja, and they still have all their utility. 3 Casters and a Dragoon, their utility and rDPS is cut significantly.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It's not a core part of their damage though. That's like saying Contagion is a core part of a Black Mages damage. It is a core part of Dragoon's damage, but it is additional damage for a bard or machinist. They are support jobs. And if Fflogs is to be believed, Machinists already outdps Dragoons at virtually every percentile, so I don't think a support job needs any more pDPS.

... That's silly logic, and only creates the meta lock already established. Contagion has a 60s CD, lasts only 15s and benefits casters, healers and PLD's Holy Spirit. Bear in mind, all five potential candidates have cast bars, thus will only benefit from roughly five casts over Contagion's duration. Disembowel has 100% uptime. They are not remotely comparable. Support doesn't mean gimp their DPS lest we apply that same logic to other jobs. In fact, if we're going with the logic support jobs don't need more pDPS, why does Ninja have slashing? It's the melee support equivalent yet... isn't reliant on another job for nearly 300 DPS. Those Machinists all have Dragoons, which is the whole point. In terms of personal or raid dps, neither Bard nor Machinist will touch Ninja or Dragoon unless they have piercing.

While I still think they should remove Piercing or have more than one job apply. If they did simply opt to give it to physical ranged, all that changes is people are more willing to sub out Dragoon for Monk or Samurai. And Bard/Machinist players aren't gimped because a static decided to recruit something besides Dragoon.

3 Casters and a Dragoon, their utility and rDPS is cut significantly.

Not by as much as you may think. Trick Attack benefits casters significantly less due to cast bars whereas Litany is a straight Crit buff that will stack with Chain Stratagem. Regardless, this is a bit disingenuous as you'll hardly see double casters let alone triple.

[GunksFoy]

snip

You're correct about Bard not touching them without it, Bard could probably due with a small buff or maybe having it added. However, I've maintained throughout this entire thread I don't think BOTH ranged should get the debuff, but I'm open to another class getting it. Machinist however, is FAR above Ninja. And these are averages over all parses, and not every single Machinist ever has a Dragoon. Machinist would fall behind Dragoon without it, but likely still be ahead of both Ninja and Red Mage. Ninja is the support, and the Slashing debuff is part of it's support. Piercing debuff is part of it's support. Bard and Machinist have plenty of support skills. Also, 15s will net you at least 6 casts, probably 7, more if you have Ley Lines or decent SS or use your oGCDs for Smn, but that's semantics. Lastly, fine, slashing debuff is not a core part of Paladin DPS. It's added bonus.

And that's kind of silly logic, because cast bars take just as long as GCD skills. Black mages don't have oGCD skills, that's true, but Smn does. And Black Mage hits significantly harder during any given GCD than any other class, so more efficiency per cast, thus greater benefit from the 4-5 casts under Trick. And Trick Attack stacks with any other damage up buff, i.e. Contagion. And that isn't the point, I only used 3 casters because it was quicker and easier to type than a full party comp. Swap 3 casters with literally any party comp other than Drg, phys rang x2. 15% crit is a significantly smaller buff than flat out 10% dps. It's a good buff, don't get me wrong, but it's not as good as Trick Attack.