The Unofficial "Why is this still a thing" Thread

[Reynhart]

The point remains no job is utterly dependent on one for a sizable boost to their damage except Bard and Machinist.

Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

And no other rBuff gives 250~300 to a single job like Disembowel does to BRD/MCH. Not even Trick Attack.

It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

[MoroMurasaki]

Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

It absolutely matters how much disembowel gives to a single job because there is no other true class dependance that comes close to the way BRD and MCH depend on DRG. No other single buff from another player does more for any job. Even Trick Attack (aka the god of raid buffs) represents around a third of the personal dps gain from Disembowel.


Imagine if you played on a dps that lost 5% of your personal damage unless a BLM was in the party. Any party you're joining or raid group you consider you have to think about this first - do they have a BLM? If not are you willing to lose that much dps off the top guaranteed? These are questions no one but BRD and MCH have to answer right now.

[Dualgunner]

Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

Please, tell me specifically what job offers another job a 5% dps increase with near 100% uptime.

EDIT: Before you answer "Slashing" let me amend:

What job offers another job 5% dps increase with near 100% uptime that they cannot apply themselves? Paladin and Dark Knight share in this problem, true, but the situation would be more similar if WAR was the only job that applied slashing debuff.

It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

Piercing gives nothing to the raid. It gives 5% damage boost to two jobs in particular. In the meta, with both BRD and MCH, DRG's rDPS outdoes NIN's rDPS, all while DRG still outdoes NIN in pDPS. At the moment DRG is actually one of the strongest rDPS jobs in the game because of the meta.

[HyoMinPark]

Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

I do, actually. In the same parse I am referencing, Foe’s gave the raid (8 people) 198.8 additional DPS. Battle Voice gave 118.4. Those values are the for entire raid. Disembowel’s value (260.4) was for 1 job. Looking at individual values (per party member) of how much Foe’s and BV gave them are even lower (the DRG got 41.3 from Foe’s, 32.4 from BV; the NIN 44.9 from Foe’s, 26.2 from BV; to use two examples).

Disembowel buffs 2 jobs (BRD/MCH) outside of the DRG that applies it. It doesn’t buff the entire raid in terms of individual damage. There’s a difference between a buff like Disembowel and a buff like Battle Voice or Foe’s or Trick Attack.

This seems intentionally disingenuous though. Dragoon would still retain those abilities, so while what you're saying is technically accurate, you would still lose 150-200 dps not having a dragoon even if they gave you a piercing debuff. I don't really have a stance on this, but it definitely seems like you're trying to deceive people by inflating the number you claim to lose by not having it.

I’m sorry, but excuse me? I’m trying to deceive people by inflating numbers?

I think most BRDs and MCHs alive would tell you that they lose quite a bit by not having a DRG. Keep in mind that I am not an orange-tier BRD. I’m actually pretty average; the 90th percentile Chadarnook I’m referencing throughout this debate is my best run of the tier, and I haven’t beat it. So better BRDs than me will lose much more than ~400 from Disembowel/Litany/Dragon Sight (if they receive it), and ~260 from Disembowel.

For comparison, I looked at a 99th percentile BRD parse on Demon Chadarnook where the BRD got 300 DPS from Disembowel. That’s more than my 260 because they’re a better BRD than I am. They also got more from Litany than I did, and about the same from Dragon Sight, though they received the latter only twice throughout the fight, where as I had it 5 times.

Taking another log from a BRD that is currently #3 in terms of ranking on God Kefka—for their Chadarnook (7012 personal DPS), they go 327.6 from Disembowel alone; Litany gave them 119.9, Dragon Sight 64.8. For their God Kefka (6679 personal DPS), they got 311.8 from Disembowel, 98.8 from Litany, 71.6 from Dragon Sight.

A better BRD than me is going to lose more than I did. I only used myself as an example to illustrate my point that BRD/MCH are more dependent on Disembowel than people seem to realize.

I think there's an app that calculates rdps, but can't remember the name of it

Yes, this is the site people use to calculate rDPS: http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/

[Reynhart]

Piercing gives nothing to the raid. It gives 5% damage boost to two jobs in particular.

It doesn't matter how it's done, it's still raid utility.

In the meta, with both BRD and MCH, DRG's rDPS outdoes NIN's rDPS, all while DRG still outdoes NIN in pDPS.

Then the problem is not about piercing debuff, but about the native DPS of DRG vs other melee ones. If you have more utility, you shouldn't do more damage by yourself.
For example, if BRD or MCH had the piercing debuff, you'd still take a DRG over a NIN on personal DPS alone and end with the same meta.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Then the problem is not about piercing debuff, but about the native DPS of DRG vs other melee ones. If you have more utility, you shouldn't do more damage by yourself.
For example, if BRD or MCH had the piercing debuff, you'd still take a DRG over a NIN on personal DPS alone and end with the same meta.

Actually, there's a good chance MNK fights DRG for its spot in the meta where piercing given to BRD/MCH. Regardless, it would make groups far more willing to accept another melee. People complain all the time about statics wanting DRG/NIN. It isn't simply meta that promotes that mindset but the fact if they have a physical range, DRG adds 250-300 DPS to their group by merely existing; double if they have both.

I'd rather have ppl stop overblowing imbalances in the game especially when most of the playerbase don't even play meta jobs correctly as the balance discord have discovered in their tanks analysis

Nothing has been overblown. I criticised a design per the thread's purpose and it sparked a discussion. For once, meta has very little to do with the criticism.

It wasn't addressed to you

My apologies then.

[Remedi]

Nothing has been overblown. I criticised a design per the thread's purpose and it sparked a discussion. For once, meta has very little to do with the criticism.

It wasn't addressed to you

[Dualgunner]

It doesn't matter how it's done, it's still raid utility.

Then I repeat the question I had to Gunks to you: how much utility is too much, when DRG outdoes NIN in both raid and personal dps? Should dragoon be nerfed to the point it's almost as weak sans BRD/MCH as BRD/MCH is sans DRG?

Then the problem is not about piercing debuff, but about the native DPS of DRG vs other melee ones. If you have more utility, you shouldn't do more damage by yourself.
For example, if BRD or MCH had the piercing debuff, you'd still take a DRG over a NIN on personal DPS alone and end with the same meta.

First I assume "DRG over a MNK" or "DRG over a SAM", not "DRG over a NIN" since DRG+NIN is the meta.

Second, Dragoon as a whole is an issue. Its strong pDPS in addition to its insane rDPS lead it to pulling the whole physical meta together.
If BRD/MCH had the piercing buff, you'd be able to take a different melee, say, a SAM or a MNK, instead of DRG and not completely gimp one of your ranged DPS for damage.
If piercing were removed entirely, we'd more likely see MCH vanish from the meta before DRG would because DRG's crit buffs would still stack with BRD's passive crit and Chain from SCH, whereas all MCH offers is hypercharge every two minutes.

[GunksFoy]

snip

It's not a core part of their damage though. That's like saying Contagion is a core part of a Black Mages damage. It is a core part of Dragoon's damage, but it is additional damage for a bard or machinist. They are support jobs. And if Fflogs is to be believed, Machinists already outdps Dragoons at virtually every percentile, so I don't think a support job needs any more pDPS.

snip

As I already explained to you, Dragoon does not have more utility than a Ninja. With dual ranged yes, because optimal synergy. But if there are no ranged in the party, a Ninja blows Dragoon away in total DPS. Besides that, Dragoon's pDPS is middling at best. Only just above Ninja at nearly every percentile.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It's not a core part of their damage though. That's like saying Contagion is a core part of a Black Mages damage. It is a core part of Dragoon's damage, but it is additional damage for a bard or machinist. They are support jobs. And if Fflogs is to be believed, Machinists already outdps Dragoons at virtually every percentile, so I don't think a support job needs any more pDPS.

... That's silly logic, and only creates the meta lock already established. Contagion has a 60s CD, lasts only 15s and benefits casters, healers and PLD's Holy Spirit. Bear in mind, all five potential candidates have cast bars, thus will only benefit from roughly five casts over Contagion's duration. Disembowel has 100% uptime. They are not remotely comparable. Support doesn't mean gimp their DPS lest we apply that same logic to other jobs. In fact, if we're going with the logic support jobs don't need more pDPS, why does Ninja have slashing? It's the melee support equivalent yet... isn't reliant on another job for nearly 300 DPS. Those Machinists all have Dragoons, which is the whole point. In terms of personal or raid dps, neither Bard nor Machinist will touch Ninja or Dragoon unless they have piercing.

While I still think they should remove Piercing or have more than one job apply. If they did simply opt to give it to physical ranged, all that changes is people are more willing to sub out Dragoon for Monk or Samurai. And Bard/Machinist players aren't gimped because a static decided to recruit something besides Dragoon.

3 Casters and a Dragoon, their utility and rDPS is cut significantly.

Not by as much as you may think. Trick Attack benefits casters significantly less due to cast bars whereas Litany is a straight Crit buff that will stack with Chain Stratagem. Regardless, this is a bit disingenuous as you'll hardly see double casters let alone triple.