The Unofficial "Why is this still a thing" Thread

[Tanathya]

Hello, a BRD here. o/

While I can’t speak for others, I would take Diversion’s 90% reduction in enmity generation over Refresh’s/Tactician’s 50% aggro dump.

On BRD, I would too, I was just pointing out how BRD and MCH both have 2 skills that reduce the enmity by half. In fact, both Refresh and Tactician should have some sort of enmity generation reduction attached to them on top of the dump.

It makes little sense Bard and Machinist are forced to burn utility abilities to half their aggro when a skill exists purely to accommodate that problem. Say a scenario occurs where the group needs Tactician. Oops, the Bard used it to cut their aggro or they'll rip from the tank. And a good Bard will rip before a Caster, though Black Mage moves close. None of the melee remotely touch Bard or Machinists aggro burst.

What is the likelihood you will have a group without Samurai, Ninja or Warrior? Three jobs provide Slashing yet only one provides Piercing despite three jobs benefiting from it. Casters are irrelevant since their damage isn't reliant on a utility like range and melee.

Refresh and Tactician, especially the first, is usually used on CD (note the "usually" there), and Tactician is normally up there on demand. Again, I would attach an enmity generation reduction to them on top of that. The burst is high, the enmity generation after that isn't. And I can tell you as a samurai, whose burst isn't exactly brilliant, as I struggled not to grab the hate off a tank shortly after the fights began when Diversion was crappy, on Deltascape Savage.

The likelihood of having a SAM, a NIN, or a WAR has nothing to do with the fact that PLD and DRK don't have it. DRG isn't only invited for their piercing resistance down, but also for their decent damage on top of Battle Littany and Dragon Sight. So, by that logic, the likelihood of having a DRG is quite high. It's as if they gave BRD and MCH their own piercing resistance down and the next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

I would just take these resistances down away, they're not interesting in the least.

[MoroMurasaki]

The likelihood of having a SAM, a NIN, or a WAR has nothing to do with the fact that PLD and DRK don't have it. DRG isn't only invited for their piercing resistance down, but also for their decent damage on top of Battle Littany and Dragon Sight. So, by that logic, the likelihood of having a DRG is quite high. It's as if they gave BRD and MCH their own piercing resistance down and the next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

I don't plan on doing the exact math but the likelihood of having one of 3 jobs in your comp for slashing resistance down which benefits 5 jobs (two of which you are guaranteed to have) seems a lot stronger than the likelihood of having one of one jobs in your party with piercing down which benefits 3 jobs (which are almost never triple stacked) and gives a mild buff to a fourth.

To put it bluntly any static thag doesn't have a NIN in it is shooting it's self in the foot. Trick + Shadewalker/Smokescreen + Slashing debuff is amazing utility. No one is going to ignore slashing resistance down because it always buffs at least the user of the debuff and both tanks.

I don't underatand how you're comparing those two things or how you made the (huge) leap to the idea that BRD/MCH would ask for some form of Litany as well - this isn't a discussion about killing DRG just about making resistance down debuffs remotely equitable.

Stop comparing apples to potatoes.

[Tanathya]

I don't plan on doing the exact math but the likelihood of having one of 3 jobs in your comp for slashing resistance down which benefits 5 jobs (two of which you are guaranteed to have) seems a lot stronger than the likelihood of having one of one jobs in your party with piercing down which benefits 3 jobs (which are almost never triple stacked) and gives a mild buff to a fourth.

To put it bluntly any static thag doesn't have a NIN in it is shooting it's self in the foot. Trick + Shadewalker/Smokescreen + Slashing debuff is amazing utility. No one is going to ignore slashing resistance down because it always buffs at least the user of the debuff and both tanks.

I don't underatand how you're comparing those two things or how you made the (huge) leap to the idea that BRD/MCH would ask for some form of Litany as well - this isn't a discussion about killing DRG just about making resistance down debuffs remotely equitable.

Stop comparing apples to potatoes.

I'm not comparing crap, I'm enforcing the idea of having them resistance down effects gone. Looking at the bigger picture here, pointing out how this isn't about "since I don't have it, you shouldn't either", but rather mentioning that many jobs depend on others just for something that shouldn't exist, such as those. And me being a SAM speaks volumes, as it's literally the only piece of support I could possibly bring in to a party.

[HyoMinPark]

On BRD, I would too, I was just pointing out how BRD and MCH both have 2 skills that reduce the enmity by half. In fact, both Refresh and Tactician should have some sort of enmity generation reduction attached to them on top of the dump.

They do...but by this same logic, Casters have both an enmity dump (Lucid Dreaming) and an enmity queller (Diversion). DRG and NIN also have other ways to manage their enmity as well (DRG has Diversion and Elusive Jump; NIN can take Diversion and also has Shadewalker to give their aggro to the tank). The only jobs with only 1 enmity management skill are actually MNK/SAM. All other jobs also have options for two, be them 2 dumps or 1 dump and 1 queller.

Personally, BRD/MCH would deal better to have a queller over a dump. It would be more prudent for SE to just remove the dump from Refresh/Tactician, and give BRD/MCH Diversion and its quelling. A support shouldn’t be having to blow their support skills to dump/quell their aggro anyways. I end up using Refresh/Tactician more often or not to dump my own aggro (Refresh less so during prog situations).

Refresh and Tactician, especially the first, is usually used on CD (note the "usually" there), and Tactician is normally up there on demand. Again, I would attach an enmity generation reduction to them on top of that. The burst is high, the enmity generation after that isn't. And I can tell you as a samurai, whose burst isn't exactly brilliant, as I struggled not to grab the hate off a tank shortly after the fights began when Diversion was crappy, on Deltascape Savage.

Tactician my be up under normal circumstances, but again, a BRD bursts every 80 seconds. That’s a burst in enmity every 80 seconds. A queller would help immensely with that burst, where as an aggro dump, yeah, it dumps it...but then you build it right back up starting immediately after its usage. A queller quells it for 30 seconds—meaning you generate 90% less enmity for 30 seconds. Way better than a flat dump, in my opinion.

Diversion wasn’t sufficient enough in the beginning, yes, but now it’s 90% reduction in enmity. As a BRD, I’m constantly on the brink of ripping aggro if I don’t have an aggro dump. And there is literally nothing I can do about it. Like I said, even after dumping it, most of the time I just drop to #4 or #5...and then I climb my way back up to #2 before either dump is off CD again.

The likelihood of having a SAM, a NIN, or a WAR has nothing to do with the fact that PLD and DRK don't have it. DRG isn't only invited for their piercing resistance down, but also for their decent damage on top of Battle Littany and Dragon Sight. So, by that logic, the likelihood of having a DRG is quite high. It's as if they gave BRD and MCH their own piercing resistance down and the next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

If you take away piercing, DRG dies. DRG is in the meta now because of the rDPS it brings to the group with Disembowel and the physical ranged jobs. Without the piercing resistance down, there is nothing keeping DRG in the meta. Damage-wise, DRG is performing at about the same level as BRD in terms of personal damage. Litany is great and all—don’t get me wrong—but not nearly enough to offset the raw damage (and utility) that MNK will bring; especially since WARs no longer care for crit buffs since the changes made to Inner Release. MNK would crush DRG if piercing was removed from the game and DRG’s potencies were not buffed to compensate. Dragon Sight provides even less of an rDPS gain than Litany does.

To give some insight, my highest Chadarnook is 90th percentile at 5752 DPS. My next parse after that was 5335 DPS. What was I missing there? A DRG. My 5335 parse actually had better gear than my 5752 parse. But without a DRG, that was -400 DPS. Just gone.

next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

Uhm, no they wouldn’t. There is a huge difference between a flat +5% buff to your damage that is up 100% of the time, and a buff that gives you +15% crit for 20 seconds every 180 seconds—you’ll see Litany twice in a 7-minute long fight; you’ll have Disembowel up for that entire 7 minutes. There is a huge difference between the two. BRD/MCH would not be asking for their own Battle Litany. BRD/MCH would like their own piercing so that they don’t suffer unnecessarily if a group doesn’t have a DRG. No other DPS job suffers like they do.

You keep mentioning tank jobs, but I’m talking about DPS jobs. All other physical DPS jobs are able to apply their own resistance down debuffs except for BRD/MCH, and they are the only ones that suffer unnecessarily when a group lacks a DRG. If there was some uniqueness to the resistance downs, then maybe I would get behind leaving it as DRG-only. But, as it stands now, MNK applies Blunt (and is the only one who benefits from it), NIN applies slashing (which it benefits from), SAM applies slashing (which it benefits from), and DRG applies piercing (which it benefits from).

[Tanathya]

Snip

When I used to do Salvage, last tier was my last, the opener was the problem, right after that, a BRD nor a MCH should worry about their enmity as much to depend on a queller. Probably things changed, but it doesn't feel like they did.

About DRG being taken out of the equation in case of the piercing resistance down gone, well, they (SE) can very well work their numbers so their personal damage makes up for the loss. Again, every job should lose that in my opinion. Since it's all in the reign of speculation and wishes, everything's on the table, but very doable in terms of raw numbers.

You keep mentioning tank jobs, but I’m talking about DPS jobs. All other physical DPS jobs are able to apply their own resistance down debuffs except for BRD/MCH, and they are the only ones that suffer unnecessarily when a group lacks a DRG. If there was some uniqueness to the resistance downs, then maybe I would get behind leaving it as DRG-only. But, as it stands now, MNK applies Blunt (and is the only one who benefits from it), NIN applies slashing (which it benefits from), SAM applies slashing (which it benefits from), and DRG applies piercing (which it benefits from).

To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

[Tanathya]

Also I don't think doing away with resistances is necessarily a bad thing at face value (with approproate potency adjustments made to effected classes, particularly DRG) but I do think resistances add a bit more nuance to party building that would otherwise just be flat. I'm not saying I'm for or against the removal of resistances entirely, it's honestly something I would think about more before being able to respond, but I think the point here is that if we are keeping resistances in the game in their current iteration BRD and MCH are getting the short end of the stick right now.

To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

I'd gladly take the short end of the stick on SAM if its value was comparable to that of a BRD or a MCH, be it by bringing either utility or even more personal damage, enough to make up for the lack of utility I currently have. I'd love to give my only utility.

Do you realize they fixed Division for a reason, yes? It's irrelevant now since they addressed the issue. And depending on the group, progression and possible mistakes, Tactician and Refresh may not be available. It's silly design to blow support abilities solely to dump your aggro when an ability exists purely to accommodate that very purpose. Most physical range will prefer a 90% queller over a 50% dump. Likewise, why attach the aforementioned queller to another skill when you can just give them Division and accomplish the same feat?

Of course it does. Three jobs apply slashing, thus making it far less likely Paladin and Dark Knight will suffer a damage loss. I never said it was the only reason, however it's a contributing factor. Physical Range suffer more than any other job without a Dragoon. They either need to remove Piercing or allow other jobs to apply it (Samurai is screaming for relevancy) because, again, why should only one job be able to apply it when Slashing does not have such limitations?

Funny you mentioned how Diversion was fixed; I used to take the hate at some point in Savage on SAM on every single fight, with (almost) every tank out there. Now, it was a suggestion, things can get worked in the form of a reduced CD (amongst other things) for Refresh and Tactician, for example.

I used to think SAM should've had both Blunt, Piercing, and Slashing resistances down attached to its finishers, but not anymore. They should do away with those, entirely.

Anyway, to each their own, I'll leave you guys to it.

[HyoMinPark]

When I used to do Salvage, last tier was my last, the opener was the problem, right after that, a BRD nor a MCH should worry about their enmity as much to depend on a queller. Probably things changed, but it doesn't feel like they did.

I have to respectfully disagree. I’m not sure what BRDs you have been running with, but I am constantly climbing back up to #2 on the enmity list after dumping my enmity. Like I said, a BRD bursts every 80 seconds. Every 180 seconds, with a DRG, I can just redo my entire opener again and burst again. Every 4 minutes and 30 seconds, I can use a pot again during another Minuet phase and burst for even higher. Sorry, but I disagree with you when you say a BRD wouldn’t benefit from a queller outside of their opener.

To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

I also mentioned:

There’s the “they offer synergy” argument, but the only “synergy” piercing has created is the physical meta of DRG/BRD/MCH that has been present since Creator. People love to hate on the meta, well the easiest way to break it is to remove piercing. Because that’s what’s holding together DRG/BRD/MCH.

You want the DRG/BRD/MCH trinity to be broken? As I said, remove piercing from the game, or give it to BRD/MCH. That would break that meta. The meta came to be because BRD and MCH formed a truce during Creator when they realized, “Holy crap, DRG can buff both of our damage.” (That was back when Disembowel was +10%; Disembowel was nerfed with SB and the meta has still persevered.)

As for SAM and slashing, NIN can apply slashing for itself. It doesn’t need a SAM. Same thing for WAR. And most statics tend to run WAR/DRK or WAR/PLD. Maybe you’d find a PLD/DRK...but if they bring a NIN, there’s slashing right there. But, from what I understand, groups don’t bring SAM to apply slashing, because for a SAM to apply it, they have to gimp their opener.

Funny you mentioned how Diversion was fixed; I used to take the hate at some point in Savage on SAM on every single fight, with (almost) every tank out there.

Diversion was modified in Patch 4.2. If you haven’t raided this tier, then that would explain why you only have experience with the old Diversion, which was terrible for MNK and SAM back in the day. But now it’s god-tier. 90% reduction for 30 seconds, and the cooldown timer is 120 seconds. So every 2 minutes it will be up to quell 30 seconds of enmity by 90%.

Now, it was a suggestion, things can get worked in the form of a reduced CD (amongst other things) for Refresh and Tactician, for example.

Maybe that could work, but a reduced cooldown on Refresh/Tactician would require them to probably adjust it’s duration or the potency attached to the skill (Refresh’s MP refresh is ridiculously potent—600 MP per tick for 6,000 MP regeneration). I’d still much rather have an aggro queller than a more frequent aggro dump. I think I would benefit more from a queller. That’s my opinion.

[KaivaC]

To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

I'm reading this and I'm confused. SAMs don't really help tanks or ninjas in that sense. Ninjas and WARs apply the slashing debuff FAR earlier than a SAM possibly could outside of Meikyo Shisui, and if a SAM chooses to use their opener to get a slashing debuff up, that hurts their overall rotation. SAM is literally pure pDPS...they don't really have raid utility in the same sense that the other DPS classes do. Even BLM can provide utility, like mana shift. I know that with WARs, on an optimized rotation, their literal second skill, Maim, applies a slashing debuff.

[Tanathya]

I'm reading this and I'm confused. SAMs don't really help tanks or ninjas in that sense. Ninjas and WARs apply the slashing debuff FAR earlier than a SAM possibly could outside of Meikyo Shisui, and if a SAM chooses to use their opener to get a slashing debuff up, that hurts their overall rotation. SAM is literally pure pDPS...they don't really have raid utility in the same sense that the other DPS classes do. Even BLM can provide utility, like mana shift. I know that with WARs, on an optimized rotation, their literal second skill, Maim, applies a slashing debuff.

That's taken out of context. Probably on me, it's alright.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'm not comparing crap, I'm enforcing the idea of having them resistance down effects gone. Looking at the bigger picture here, pointing out how this isn't about "since I don't have it, you shouldn't either", but rather mentioning that many jobs depend on others just for something that shouldn't exist, such as those. And me being a SAM speaks volumes, as it's literally the only piece of support I could possibly bring in to a party.

I suppose I will respond to this with...

If you take away piercing, DRG dies. DRG is in the meta now because of the rDPS it brings to the group with Disembowel. If a group has a BRD or MCH, that’s +400~500 rDPS right there. If you have both, +800~1,000. Without the piercing resistance down, there is nothing keeping DRG in the meta. Damage-wise, DRG is performing at about the same level as BRD in terms of personal damage. Litany is great and all—don’t get me wrong—but not nearly enough to offset the raw damage (and utility) that MNK will bring; especially since WARs no longer care for crit buffs since the changes made to Inner Release. MNK would crush DRG if piercing was removed from the game and DRG’s potencies were not buffed to compensate. Dragon Sight provides less of an rDPS gain than Litany does.

This

Also I don't think doing away with resistances is necessarily a bad thing at face value (with approproate potency adjustments made to effected classes, particularly DRG) but I do think resistances add a bit more nuance to party building that would otherwise just be flat. I'm not saying I'm for or against the removal of resistances entirely, it's honestly something I would think about more before being able to respond, but I think the point here is that if we are keeping resistances in the game in their current iteration BRD and MCH are getting the short end of the stick right now.