The Unofficial "Why is this still a thing" Thread

[HyoMinPark]

You don't lose anything, the raid loses 400 DPS on you by not having a DRG paired with you. That's the definition of raid utility.

If you weren't there, the raid would also lose what you offer as utility.

Actually, BRD/MCH do lose something—personal damage. Both the raid and physical ranged lose out on damage; the only difference is the BRD/MCH is personal DPS, the raid is rDPS. DRG’s piercing directly affects BRD/MCH personal damage output in ways that no other DPS is effected. They lose 250~300 personal DPS without Disembowel. The raid, in turn, loses the same amount of rDPS that BRD/MCH lose in personal DPS. Again, no other DPS is dependent like they are. And no other rBuff gives 250~300 to a single job like Disembowel does to BRD/MCH. Not even Trick Attack.

For some insight, I looked at the rDPS calculator of my 5753 parse, and the breakdown of buffs that benefited me were as follows:

—Disembowel: 260.4
—Battle Litany: 48.6
—Dragon Sight: 57.1
—Balance: 57.1
—Spear: 12.6
—Chain Strategem: 45.5
—Trick Attack: 94.7
—Embolden (5-4-3-2-1): 19.9-21.8-13.9-5.5-4.0

No other buff benefits BRD/MCH like Disembowel does. No other DPS is so entirely dependent on another job either in order to reach its potential personal damage.

And sure, BRD offers an immense amount of utility in their passive crit buff, Foe’s, and Battle Voice. But Disembowel still gives more to a BRD than any one of their raid buffs alone does to the entire raid. Same for other rBuffs like Trick Attack. And this, again, goes back to what I’ve been saying: no other DPS job is as dependent on another in terms of personal potential than BRD/MCH are on DRG.
Honestly, I think MCH suffers more without a DRG than BRD, because at least BRDs have their DoTs, which aren’t affected by piercing with regards to their ticks.

The “raid utility” of Disembowel is the reason the physical meta has been the meta since Creator. Not even the 5% nerf to it stopped it. Take away piercing or give to to another DPS/BRD or MCH, and the meta of DRG/BRD/MCH breaks because there are more options; or because BRD/MCH no longer have to rely on getting a portion of their personal damage from another job (in the event piercing is just removed entirely).

Maybe I don't quite understand how the 5% is applied, but if it's effectively a 5% flat damage buff, that would mean you would have to do 8,000 dps to lose 400. it seems you're more likely to lose about 200-250 (4000-5000dps).

The ~400 I mentioned is with regards to losing the entirety of a DRG’s toolkit. That being said, Disembowel makes up the majority of that ~400.

[GunksFoy]

Raging Strikes is on an 80 second cooldown. But again, it’s not the same as Disembowel—Disembowel is +5% damage at 100% uptime during any given fight. It automatically outweighs Raging Strikes. By a long shot.

Here’s an example: during my current best parse of the tier (Demon Chadarnook, 9:22), I used Raging Strikes 7 times. At 20 seconds duration, that’s 140 seconds of +10% damage. Compare that to Disembowel...at +5% damage for 9 minutes and 22 seconds. Again, Disembowel outweighs Raging Strikes by a long shot. No other job has that sort of dependency. I lose ~400 DPS outright by just not having a DRG.

Maybe I don't quite understand how the 5% is applied, but if it's effectively a 5% flat damage buff, that would mean you would have to do 8,000 dps to lose 400. it seems you're more likely to lose about 200-250 (4000-5000dps).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You don't lose anything, the raid loses 400 DPS on you by not having a DRG paired with you. That's the definition of raid utility.

If you weren't there, the raid would also lose what you offer as utility.

That's being pedantic. Piercing personally buffs physical range, thus they do lose that chunk of damage, which causes the rdps to decline. The point remains no job is utterly dependent on one for a sizable boost to their damage except Bard and Machinist. It's simply poor design when slashing can be applied by three jobs yet piercing is Dragoon only. And it remains why the physical meta has dominated since Creator.

Maybe I don't quite understand how the 5% is applied, but if it's effectively a 5% flat damage buff, that would mean you would have to do 8,000 dps to lose 400. it seems you're more likely to lose about 200-250 (4000-5000dps).

I suspect those calculations include everything Dragoon offers, which actually pushes the loss higher; 500ish. Disembowel alone roughly accounts for 250-300 though, yes.

[Vstarstruck]

Why do the egi still not directly obey even if we have them on obey? As far as I know I need to cast that one egi skill before I cast my Dots but its so annoying since the Egi takes such a long time to do as I say..isnt there a way to overwrite commands? So that they truly obey our commands when we click on them?

(Also why is the 1000 character limit still a thing?)

ps2 limitations (more so the bold but the first issue fits as well)

[Shouko]

ps2 limitations (more so the bold but the first issue fits as well)

PS2 limitations...this game never ran on the PS2, unless you meant the PS3 but that ended a while ago.

[Vstarstruck]

PS2 limitations...this game never ran on the PS2, unless you meant the PS3 but that ended a while ago.

it's a meme based on ffxi, i did mean ps2 limitations.

it pokes fun at there is always something limiting them in why they can't do x.
(I/e they recently said win 32 limitations on something, though with inventory display it did sound legit and explained they could add an option to display the full 140 for win 64) < this just giving an example on where it comes from, because in ffxi it was the excuse to everything.

I thought it would been obvious there was a joke here when i said the FORUMS is being limited by the ps2.

[Tridus]

Why would you bring Stoneskin back? Divine Benison is a superior version of it. Honestly, it sounds like you just want to be playing 2.x.

Protect was changed for a reason: if it actually matters and only WHM has it, WHM is now mandatory for progression. That's not a good thing.

[RiyahArp]

Why would you bring Stoneskin back? Divine Benison is a superior version of it. Honestly, it sounds like you just want to be playing 2.x..

Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

[Tint]

Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

it's true, you can't compare stoneskin and benison that easily. they are different skills with different purposes. however, if i had to choose i would always take benison.

it's not stoneskin - but it's by far the better skill (at least after they removed the lily requirement)

Protect was changed for a reason: if it actually matters and only WHM has it, WHM is now mandatory for progression. That's not a good thing.

i am not too sure if it was a good reason... SCH and AST would still had the physical protect and on top of that super virus, disable, fey covenant, sacred soil and collective unconscious (the bubbles do stack, don't they?). enough tools to cover the lack in magic defense for those raid busters...

[Miste]

i am not too sure if it was a good reason... SCH and AST would still had the physical protect and on top of that super virus, disable, fey covenant, sacred soil and collective unconscious (the bubbles do stack, don't they?). enough tools to cover the lack in magic defense for those raid busters...

Not denying those were all great abilities, but we no longer have some of those and even if we did some fights have a high amount of magic AoE raid damage.

Have you been in O6S or O8S? The amount of AoE magic damage going out is high so the tools right now wouldn't cover it all.

You also have to take into account SCH using all their stacks on Sacred Soil means they can't use it on Lustrate/Excog/Indom/Energy Drain. So yeah they can pop a Sacred Soil every 30s to try to make up for the fact they don't have Proshell, but they are losing other tools and/or MP/DPS.

Collective Unconscious has a 90s cooldown not nearly short enough to handle all the AoE damage in some of the savage turns. It also has a server tick issue to proc the mitigation/regen which can cause ASTs to loose up to 3 GCDs trying to proc it. So it is a clunky ability and has downsides of being forced to channel it and unable to cast or move and also losing GCDs for other healing and/or DPS.

Also none of these tools are a cast it and forget it type thing like Protect is (minus death and having to recast once in awhile). So other healers would have to use more resources and waste healing and DPS uptime to mitigate.

If AST and SCH no longer had Proshell (which we have right now) then likely any comp without a WHM would be at a pretty big disadvantage since the group as a whole would take a lot more overall AoE damage throughout the fight.

They could just make Protect a spell every healer gets instead of it taking up a role skill slot tho....but then again Esuna really needs that too.