Racial Differences in Stats

[Cerseii]

I really like the idea of racial differences in FFXIV. I think it would greatly increase uniqueness of the game and funness. The racial differences now, I think, should be taken out, unless more serious ones are implemented. Its just confusing having to explain to people that there are differences but they will never make a difference.

I have several reasons based on these assumptions:
-Currently, the racial differences are small enough to be negligable.
-Elitists do exist, and should be taken into consideration but not paramount. Elitists are srtictly endgame people. FFXIV is allgame content. Why reform for one component of the game?
-Any racial difference should not be small enough to be negligable but not large enough to prevent any race from being socially forbidden from being a class.
-FFXIV should not be, in any way, encouraged to include something for the sole reason that FFXI had it. However, FFXI is a game that is similar and can be included in examples and references of how racial differences effect an game's overall value. (Note: Combat in XIV is different than XI in general EXP parties. One difference is that mobs are usually killed a lot faster resulting in larger pulls or roaming parties.)
-FFXIV is in dire need of more subscribers, especially moreso now that payment will be required. More people are actively against racial differences than for. -One of the reasons WoW is popular is because of how much it includes what the people want, which may not always effect a game positively. (For example, people didn't like travelling to instances, wanted to play with people from other servers: Dungeon Finder, People wanted to make gear look different; Gear appearance changers, People wanted flying mounts in the 2 main continents; given, People wanted mounts at lower levels; mounts at 20, Etc.)
-FFXIV is not WoW. In WoW, unless specified otherwise before a raid starts (I'm ignoring pre-endgame content) the only thing that really mattered was apparent usefulness (a tank being able to keep life up and keep threat, a healers heal count, a damagers damage count). Even if a DPS died mid-fight for 60 seconds from unpreventable causes (his DPS would stay somewhat accurate) and had the most DPS, his overall damage may not be first, and someone else may recieve credit. In FFXI, there were "support" jobs. For example, the bard and scholar. A bard could not directly cause damage and was only effective in groups. The scholar could do both damage and heals, and therefore was less effective in both than a BLM or WHM. This isn't as true in XIV, but it is somewhat true and will be moreso in the future. From this, the fact that support jobs must be included in discussion is true.
If you don't agree with any of these, state which one in your argument.

In FFXI, I rolled a taru. I thought, hmm, I pretty much all I like to do is use magic classes and tarus are good at magic so I should be good with them. I obviously had severe stat differences with other classes like galkas. Naturally, I explored other jobs like paladin and such. I remember one experience I had tanking: They said a taru tank would never work (this was level 30 at Yhoator) but let me try it anyway. I had a large mana pool, and was able to keep myself full of mana for most of the fight. The extra heals gave me the enmity I would have otherwise lost as a different race as a paladin (and afterward one of them said I did better than most tanks could have). One example obviously isn't enough, but hypothetically, there are others. For expample, take a galka mage. Lotta life, low MP, MND and INT. However, there are benefits to that extra HP as a mage. He could nuke or heal as much as he wanted, when the mob attacked him he knew he was at his limit and could stop and let DD and tank regain relative enmity. He'd be attacked a few times, his extra life saving him from death. Using food could compensate for loss in mana. It may cost some G to keep up in common gameplay but that might be considered negligable, since other classes have to pay G for simple play anyway (For example, Ninja in FFXI and Archer in FFXIV). However, a taru that accidentally gained too much enmity would be 1-3 shotted from a formidable foe. Healing self would gain more enmity and therefore more damage from the mob. The idea of compensation in distribution of stats based on race justifying certain classes, of course, is not true for everything. A taru tank warrior, would have nothing to compensate with for lower VIT, except for maybe more dodge or something, but not significantly. Also, one train of thought might say that a taru and galka could do the same damage no matter what -as long as its reasonable- the racial stat differences are, seeing as how both are capped by the amount of enmity they can generate, given that stat-generated damage is counted in enmity.

This still leaves the fact that some people will not be satisfied at all with any form of play style for classes being socially excluded by race. For example, there are going to people who want to face tank with a taru with as much health as possible. They are going to not want to have to hide behind their extra magic, sustaining spells like Shock Spikes and Stoneskin, even though they may be a GLD, when tanking. However, such a playstyle as tanking as a little itti-bitti taru hiding behind health really isn't realistic. Nothing about an MMORPG is realistic, you say? Sure, but somethings are and I'd like to keep at least a resemblance of some. For example, I didn't like how in WoW you could simply summon a mammoth out of thin air. In FFXIV and FFXI you rent a chocobo from a stable or call one that picks you up where ever you are, concepts most people and I surely agree with. Somethings in games like FFXI and FFXIV there are at least somethings based on realism, like the airships and boats in XI, kept in check by gametime agendas, and VIT based on a race's sizes and lore. Not all people can be appeased. One person face tanking a boss as a taru like a galka would will please some people, but it will annoy people as well.

As to people believing racial aesthetic decisions should not effect gameplay. Generally, people who want to be a galka aren't going to want to be flimsy casters and people who are tarus generally aren't going to want to be tanks. Size does indeed usually come hand-in-hand with strength. All I have for now in this paragraph- more later.

Now, to people who talk about elitist groups excluding certain races as classes. There are so many options to compositions of groups in FFXIV. There are (will be) support classes to take into consideration. Both magic classes have the ability to heal and DD, respectively specialized. Therefore, they're both not complete respectively DD or heals, and can switch thereof during encounters. Having different races as different classes will have the same effect. This isn't WoW where all you need (generally) is types of DD and heals - in FFXIV/XI support, styles of play, and group benefits provided by classes are all factors. It would be difficult to simply say: Taru casters are the only acceptible casters. -Side note: one or two complaints from ignorant players about race/class combos should not warrant enough for someone to complain about social exclusions or accusations. Such is to be expected in online games.

To the idea of racial abilities based on the lore of race - A nice way to stop the bleating of the lore fiends, not enough to provoke the elitists. However, I resent this idea. It in no way represents the realism FFXIV represents (again, however slight that might be). It seems like what WoW is doing - whatever the majority of players want, decreasing the value of the game (obvious opinion). It is my belief that racial traits should be readily apparent.

-Just realized I used all XI terminology for races. For those who don't know:
Galka - Roagadyn
Taru - Lalafell

[Allistar]

I too feel that racial stat differences would be beneficial to the game...it forces players to seriouly consider what gear and what materia works best for their race...it shouldn't be too drastic as to create social exclusions but it also shouldn't be too minimal that it makes the differences negligible...I have no problem with playing alongside elitist hardcore or elitist semi-hardcore (whatever that is)...they are who they are...

[Shougun]

I disagree, though I don't feel your points are invalid. Under a "realistic" sense of fantasy races it does seem prudent to have racial differences, and it also adds a greater identity to each race.

However I disagree as FFXIV is a game of freedom, and under similar construct so too was FFXI, though arguably less so. The job system screams this in choice, while adding "racial preference" stomps out what the job system touts. Why ever be a galka white mage if you could be a taru white mage, no one wants a galka if there is a taru available (mage class scenarios at least - taru had a significant magic power compared to other races in FFXI, when I played).



I feel having a racial difference in the beginning is fine, even making it significant is ok, but I also feel that it must become negligible at max levels. The normal gamer does not have time or money to level multiple characters to 50, nor does it make sense in a game with a job system. Making a difference at max levels means you may feel you have wasted vasts amounts of time because a year later you discovered you loved THM and you had early picked a magic simplistic race. In short, punishment for not planning your game years in advance for something you knew not. Assuming a player knows the future of their choices is illogical, punishing them for it cruel.

In games of short length (generally single player) major difference continue realism and immersion, under multi-player and long term lengths major differences causes disruption of player enjoyment. To that last point, yes some players will be happy to have a better realism, specially when they play the job they only love. However, I feel that (their) enjoyment is negligible compared to the general loss that would be expressed by the rest of the whole.


Therefore; it shouldn't exist, or shouldn't exist as a long term hold on the game.



Just to add one more perspective to this of a similar past discussion, think about the difference between males and females. Women are factually on average more flexible then men, men are factually on average stronger then women. Should we include these into the game? Make them substantial? Unless the difference was extremely negligible, I'm sure the game would have some intense opposition in certain crowds. And to further this point, -almost every- game has decided to drop this difference, the ones that haven't are usually single player games where it means not (like racial differences).

Another one for fun; tarus should run slower and not be able to jump as high as hume's but turn faster. I don't think its necessary to explain why this would never exist in an MMO.


Hume - Hyur
Elezen - Elvaan
Lalafell - Taru
Miqote - Mithra
Roegadyn - Galka

[Allistar]

I disagree, though I don't feel your points are invalid. Under a "realistic" sense of fantasy races it does seem prudent to have racial differences, and it also adds a greater identity to each race.

However I disagree as FFXIV is a game of freedom, and under similar construct so too was FFXI, though arguably less so. The job system screams this in choice, while adding "racial preference" stomps out what the job system touts. Why ever be a galka white mage if you could be a taru white mage, no one wants a galka if there is a taru available (mage class scenarios at least - taru had a significant magic power compared to other races in FFXI, when I played).



I feel having a racial difference in the beginning is fine, even making it significant is ok, but I also feel that it must become negligible at max levels. The normal gamer does not have time or money to level multiple characters to 50, nor does it make sense in a game with a job system. Making a difference at max levels means you may feel you have wasted vasts amounts of time because a year later you discovered you loved THM and you had early picked a magic simplistic race. In short, punishment for not planning your game years in advance for something you knew not. Assuming a player knows the future of their choices is illogical, punishing them for it cruel.

In games of short length (generally single player) major difference continue realism and immersion, under multi-player and long term lengths major differences causes disruption of player enjoyment. To that last point, yes some players will be happy to have a better realism, specially when they play the job they only love. However, I feel that (their) enjoyment is negligible compared to the general loss that would be expressed by the rest of the whole.


Therefore; it shouldn't exist, or shouldn't exist as a long term hold on the game.



Just to add one more perspective to this of a similar past discussion, think about the difference between males and females. Women are factually on average more flexible then men, men are factually on average stronger then women. Should we include these into the game? Make them substantial? Unless the difference was extremely negligible, I'm sure the game would have some intense opposition in certain crowds. And to further this point, -almost every- game has decided to drop this difference, the ones that haven't are usually single player games where it means not (like racial differences).

Another one for fun; tarus should run slower and not be able to jump as high as hume's but turn faster. I don't think its necessary to explain why this would never exist in an MMO.


Hume - Hyur
Elezen - Elvaan
Lalafell - Taru
Miqote - Mithra
Roegadyn - Galka

I fully understand what you are saying, this is why I also stated that gear and materia play a big role in balancing out racial differences...if there was a cap then those races that have certain natural traits will hit that cap faster and would see no increase in benefits from stacking those said stats...but a race that lacks those stats will continue to see benefits until they too hit the cap...of course the gear and materia added stats would scale equally to the races that have the naturally high stats...so there is no feeling that anyone is more powerful...eventually all the races would get to the point where they are all equal no matter what job/class...but by putting the differences there is some diversity as well as an increase for crafters...and not everyone will be running around in the same gear ...

[zaviermhigo]

My boyfriends a roeg and was a galka, he would hate to be gimped again just due to playing the race he wants to play. I agree with its cool and it makes sense, the clans technically support a mage clan and a dd/tank clan, but what if you're a seeker of the sun who wants to play a mage, that is just the most appealing to you. As a seeker of the sun, in a realistic stat distribution, they'd be bad mages, and they'd have to work harder with gear and such to make up the difference, and with materia its possible, but no one wants to materia themselves out to equalize with another race, they want to be OP when they add materia! (meaning you're a roegadyn who does play a mage because I know a ton you guys are racist, if you use mp materia you might equalize with a lalafell without materia, but not if that lalafell has materia) So all around I say no, the system mixed with Square Enix might lead to half assery, which no one likes.

In each race there are two clans that would need to accounted for, I do not want to scrap that lore, they'd be no reason for me to have a long tail versus the seeker of the sun, it would all just be aesthetic, I like it the way it is with some lore to back it up. I just think once you get to "oh I'm a dunesfolk or plainsfolk' and I can't do magic the whole races want to be a certain job falls through. Because characters know stats don't matter so much racially, they chose whichever clan, luckily I'm already the mage clan of Miqote of this was instituted but think about all the people who just chose what looked good to them, and then chose what classes they liked, a good portion of them would be kinda of angry having to use materia to just hit base stats of others.

[AlaulaTheGreat]

I thought we all ended up having racial differences, but now that I think about it now, seems like it barely made a difference with the stats, lol.

[Fear]

No, please god no. I was fedup in XI with being a taru at the beginning and when I wanted to be a melee I had 200-400 less HP than everyone else.

[Reinheart]

FFXI Galka WHM FTW!!!

Would of made sense to have racial differences looking at realistically but they chose to do it this way so players can freely choose the race they want without worrying about FFXI Galka WHM lol. One thing I want to ask the devs at later time once the game is fully polished and good to go in 2.0 is to make every race have different motions or add more characteristics instead of all of them doing almost exact same thing.

[Shurrikhan]

Couldn't the races then just be less (at least universally) stat-based? The game already runs largely on conditionals, now that our stats are separate for every class we level.

For example, there's no reason why there couldn't be a benefit for any given role that still functions differently than other races' benefit for that same role.
Consider Tanking:
Taru - Stubborn Persistence (Effective hp bonus especially when health is low [Taru-size]),
Hyur - Bastion (increased defense from surrounding non-offensive (especially party) effects),
Roegadyn - Avatar (increased defense and health regeneration from surrounding offensive and buffing effects)
etc.

It would take a little work, but I'm sure racial benefits like that could be made for all roles (or classes or main-stats). The question after that is simply whether or not the benefits under every condition for whatever race should follow the same general specialty ("each bonus sorta points towards playing a caster," or "towards an intelligence stat"), or, inversely, should not stack and remain separate.

(That said, for a race to have a general move towards a certain stats wouldn't really limit freedom until we have an actual choice in stats -- at present, the ones useful to us per class are pretty well pre-defined. It wouldn't be such a bad thing for Roegadyn, for example, to make a better use of strength stat even when playing Conjurer, allowing them to be a more capable Shield-Wand tank if they like, but not especially gimping them compared to other races when going for full dps either.)

In the latter case, races could still pull off any role to the same extent, just through different strategy (the bonuses on the whole do not force a particular role). A party's racial makeup would be a fairly important factor, but not in a WoW-ish way of "do you have the right gem slotted?" (the right race for the role), but rather a gestalt of "do all these factors together make us team badass?"

----I still favor the idea of traits-leveling, where these racial benefits would probably be traits you could level from the beginning, where others would be learned through your leveling experience. Their significance too then, would be a player-controlled factor.

@ Reinheart
As for racial animation differences, I'd like to see more animations, but probably not have them based quite on race. Leading stats (or my vaguely imagined version of traits) seem like they'd be a more interesting reason for differentiating animations.

[Ryuko]

I spent so much time choosing my race, my clan, AND my guardian. They are barely noticeable, if at all. I would like if they had a little bit more sway, especially considering how high your base stats are at 50 (prior to point allotment) compared to, say, XI. Having a few points extra is negligible when you already have over 100 in each stat.

Today, an LS-mate asked me why my tail had a red tip, and I had to explain the difference between the two mi'qote races, and how I chose the keepers of the moon because I plan to be a mage. As of right now, clans don't matter at all. It would be nice if they were in the future.