I think I've figured out the source of 90% of my wrong keypresses.

[Lilseph]

Think it's because the game was built around the idea of being playable at 200ms ping. If you short the GCD, people that play with that latency will be screwed over. Not to mention the off-gcd clipping that will occur under these conditions.

[Shurrikhan]

Think it's because the game was built around the idea of being playable at 200ms ping. If you short the GCD, people that play with that latency will be screwed over. Not to mention the off-gcd clipping that will occur under these conditions.

The game already penalizes people playing at under ~110 ms at minimum skill speeds, due to the need for doubleweaving for optimal DPS.

Nor does a longer GCD necessarily buffer against latency. The buffer is solely the portion of time over a given action decision for which you can queue another, relative to latency. Even if a skill or GCD lasts a full 2 seconds, if it only actuates queues within its last .2 seconds, then anyone at 200 ms or over is punished.

And what you'll find here for many an oGCD skill is that either queues are only actuated over a very small portion of the prior decision's animation lock, or something is delaying how that actuated queue is acted upon. Thus there is a noticeable difference in the time it takes for an 80 ms Ninja to cast Suiton vs. a 150 ms Ninja to do so.

[Xiomara]

You must be joking. Why do you like a GCD where you can go to the toilet ... AND wash your hands and still be in time to press your second button.

If you can go to the toilet and wash your hands in 2.5 seconds, then you've got issues buddy, and you might need to see a doctor. Or use an actual bathroom, poopsocking hasn't been a thing since the late 2000's.

[Shurrikhan]

Just curious - mind showing the data that you looked at to come to this conclusion? The data I looked at showed that on average (looking strictly at melee DPS), the fastest in FF14 are generally equivalent with some of the slower specs in WoW, not even on average.

Sorry, mine were generated taking APMs from 75th percentiles on warcraftlogs and fflogs, and then simulatively stripping the effects of haste/skill_speed/spell_speed from each, avoiding parses with rotational breakpoints that would lead to disproportionately higher cpm.

I suspect I accidentally allowed for simultaneously-executed macroed actions to be counted as one apm count on WoW's side, however.

With Haste accounted for, WoW beats XIV hands-down for apm for most jobs, excluding perhaps against a parse-lucky Bard and ofc WoW specs with spammable oGCDs such as FR.

It was a rough check in either case, of no more than a sample size of 2-3 per spec/job.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Sorry, mine were generated taking APMs from 75th percentiles on warcraftlogs and fflogs, and then simulatively stripping the effects of haste/skill_speed/spell_speed from each, avoiding parses with rotational breakpoints that would lead to disproportionately higher cpm.

I suspect I accidentally allowed for simultaneously-executed macroed actions to be counted as one apm count on WoW's side, however.

With Haste accounted for, WoW beats XIV hands-down for apm for most jobs, excluding perhaps against a parse-lucky Bard and ofc WoW specs with spammable oGCDs such as FR.

It was a rough check in either case, of no more than a sample size of 2-3 per spec/job.

That makes sense then.

Curious why you thought removing Haste/skill_spell speed was a good data point though? That's marginalizing a lot of the class design in WoW knowing full well it doesn't make as large of an impact in FF14. It seems disingenuous at best.

For instance - compare my Ret DPS cooldown in WoW vs. NIN/MNK/SAM's skill speed modifiers. By removing a haste source like this from my Ret you're removing a staggeringly large portion of its kit. I'm not confident that normalizing MNK/SAM/NIN's skill speed buffs even remotely captures the same level of interaction and depth that the Ret cooldown does.

[Shurrikhan]

That makes sense then.

Curious why you thought removing Haste/skill_spell speed was a good data point though? That's marginalizing a lot of the class design in WoW knowing full well it doesn't make as large of an impact in FF14. It seems disingenuous at best.

For instance - compare my Ret DPS cooldown in WoW vs. NIN/MNK/SAM's skill speed modifiers. By removing a haste source like this from my Ret you're removing a staggeringly large portion of its kit. I'm not confident that normalizing MNK/SAM/NIN's skill speed buffs even remotely captures the same level of interaction and depth that the Ret cooldown does.

Mostly because the concern I was responding to when I first gathered the data was the fundamental difference at nominal or base rate between the faster base GCD but fewer oGCDs and vice versa, and because the numbers then skew so widely depending on whether the given spec scales CDs to Haste or not, tossing the stat's value about even harder in some cases than from, say, SpS from BLM to RDM. Even at base or lower benchmark original 7% Haste, Dauntless Rage Arms would outpace XIV, but by the time I'm weighing Haste Fury or Outlaw against an XIV class, it feels more like I'm weighing one secondary stat saturation rate vs another rather than any fundamental difference in design. WoW just gives you a lot more secondary stat to work with, to the point that people have hit hard caps before the end of final raid tiers. While this has been toned down somewhat since Mists, partly due to the removal of being able to swap stats via original Warforging, it's still just leagues off from what we see in XIV, yet a single expansion, stat squish, or curve adjustment could completely remove that difference in 5.0. While the scaled CDs are important to WoW's gameplay, they're just as arbitrary as our XIV examples such as Empyreal Arrow, so I guess I decided to skip/strip it for the time being.

The other half of it was simple accident. I'd accumulated the data before, but forgot to store the context, and it wasn't until after reviewing it that I remembered what specifics I'd set in its accumulation.

Note: Haste / Attack Speed generated from anything but the Haste / SkS-SpS stats themselves was not removed. Greased Lightning, Adrenaline Rush, what have you, all remained accounted for.

[OMega_ARcane]

The funny/frustrating thing is starting off as a tank, changing to a fast job like Ninja and switching back to tank way later and trying to adjust back...