Thief, Musketeer, Dark Knight, and Arcanist

[Duelle]

There is nothing specifically wrong with your specualtion. I even like the weapon choices. However, I cant get on board with this idea of having multiple jobs share one class. How can 5 abilities show any kind of reasonable difference between say PLD and DRK.

Application and damage potential. Fast Blade from a DRK would hurt a lot more than Fast Blade from a PLD. If they go with my suggestion and bring back Circle Slash (under the name Spinning Slash) that would also hurt a lot more coming from a DRK than a PLD. DRK would not be able to fully benefit from stuff like Rampart due to lower base defense values and would not be able to use Aegis Boon. Not to mention a DRK would be able to use Riot Blade and Goring Blade a whole lot more than a PLD can.

I made a suggestion with more detail some time ago.

[Kagalli]

All i know is, Scythe <Can I have it?>

[Hyrist]

Well you didnt flesh it out this much the first time. However, if they did something like you suggest, then it would be a lot better than what originally came to my mind (just a 5 ability difference). Honestly though at that point, if you are going to be able to almost completely change your build/role/spec by changing weapons (something the class system already does), why not just have seperate classes. I think doing it the way you speculate vs having unique classes is fairly even, so I guess I wouldnt have a problem with it. But why not go all the way with 2 different classes at that point?

1) it is the system that has already been designated. Put bluntly, we are going to have multiple jobs to a class - to do that sucessfully, the base abilities of each class is going to have to become more flexible. The most feasable way of doing that is tying certain key abilities to each weapon deviant of that class.

2) It meets a request of the fan base. We've been telling them for a while we want to have variable weapons for classes instead of being stuck to one type. This meets a good compromise in the concept of doing so. Now, classes will be able to equip multiple types of weapons all around, but Jobs will be centered around one type - creating both unique Jobs and classes.

3) Overlap. You can't turn around and make 2 classes out of Ranger and Bard, or Lancer and Templar, they share the same weapon umbrella. Also if you overlay too much, like Gladiator taking the spear for Templar, now you've got a conflict with Lancer. This way, Gladiator stays within it's same theme by switching form one sword section to another, and the same for lancer and templar. Overlapping job concepts stay within their Class Canopies.

This also broadens the concept of the base classes in general and allows for better concept combinations. Instead of saying "Thief to Ninja" as the classic might be, you can create a Ronin Class type that covers both Ninja and Samurai - allowing them to create thematic expansions based on classes.

Yes, the roles of Classes may become more variable, but that's a good thing. Classes were meant to be variable, and enabling them the ability to change out their full skill-set based off of their weapon and support skills enables more player variety all around, while keeping unique characters in the Job systems that personify a staple Final Fantasy entity.

[Amsai]

1) it is the system that has already been designated. Put bluntly, we are going to have multiple jobs to a class - to do that sucessfully, the base abilities of each class is going to have to become more flexible. The most feasable way of doing that is tying certain key abilities to each weapon deviant of that class.

2) It meets a request of the fan base. We've been telling them for a while we want to have variable weapons for classes instead of being stuck to one type. This meets a good compromise in the concept of doing so. Now, classes will be able to equip multiple types of weapons all around, but Jobs will be centered around one type - creating both unique Jobs and classes.

3) Overlap. You can't turn around and make 2 classes out of Ranger and Bard, or Lancer and Templar, they share the same weapon umbrella. Also if you overlay too much, like Gladiator taking the spear for Templar, now you've got a conflict with Lancer. This way, Gladiator stays within it's same theme by switching form one sword section to another, and the same for lancer and templar. Overlapping job concepts stay within their Class Canopies.

This also broadens the concept of the base classes in general and allows for better concept combinations. Instead of saying "Thief to Ninja" as the classic might be, you can create a Ronin Class type that covers both Ninja and Samurai - allowing them to create thematic expansions based on classes.

Yes, the roles of Classes may become more variable, but that's a good thing. Classes were meant to be variable, and enabling them the ability to change out their full skill-set based off of their weapon and support skills enables more player variety all around, while keeping unique characters in the Job systems that personify a staple Final Fantasy entity.

You are entitled to your opinion on this. I certainly dont think what you have put together is bad from a "can it work" point of view. But I really dont know what else to say except that I plainly don't like this idea.... at all. No matter how well you flesh it out, having seperate classes to each job will always look and feel more unique. As to people wanting different weapons per class, SE dug their own hole with that decision (lol guess weapons = class wasnt that great an idea in hindsight). Also while it is a bit annoying to me as well, I would rather be stuck with one weapon than have to share a base class (meh, personal preference on my part).

Your 3rd point Im either interpreting differently than you intended, or I just dont think its true. You really think we cant make 2 classes out of Ranger and Bard Jobs? Bard = Archer and Ranger = (whatever you'd call crossbow user). There I did it. It might not be what you were expecting, but nobody expected Bard from Archer either. When jobs were first mentioned, everyone and their mother thought Archer would be Ranger. 0.o So I wouldnt say you cant do it. Hell you could even make a difference in Bow size and have Barchers use normal bows, and have Rangers/LongBowmen use well Longbows

More personal preference:
If we have to go with multiple jobs per class I'd do it differently, at least from the ones you just mentioned.

Gladiator = PLD or Templar (Templar as in Knight Templars as in Holy Knight Templars from history so sounds a lot like PLD)

Lancer = DRG or Samurai (Samurai used polearms fairly often too, not too mention they can in FFXI)

Rogue(or something) = Thief or Ninja (makes more sense to me simply because of FF series standards)

Those first 2 are me just having fun, but I really think thief and ninja need to be tied to the same class for sure due to their stealth class nature. Tying Ninja to Sam seems like it would overlap and possibly overshadow in terms of role.

[Ingolf]

I'll be fine if equipping a great sword gives vastly different skills than a sword and shield.

[Hyrist]

More personal preference:
If we have to go with multiple jobs per class I'd do it differently, at least from the ones you just mentioned.

Gladiator = PLD or Templar (Templar as in Knight Templars as in Holy Knight Templars from history so sounds a lot like PLD)

Lancer = DRG or Samurai (Samurai used polearms fairly often too, not too mention they can in FFXI)

Rogue(or something) = Thief or Ninja (makes more sense to me simply because of FF series standards)

Those first 2 are me just having fun, but I really think thief and ninja need to be tied to the same class for sure due to their stealth class nature. Tying Ninja to Sam seems like it would overlap and possibly overshadow in terms of role.

How? In terms of role, Ninja would be more of an evasive tank style like it is in FFXI, or more in terms of magic damage where as Samurai would be your straight physical damage role. (Side-note, Samurai without a Katna would upset QUITE a few, and there's absolutely no way you can give a Lancer a Katana, as it breaks class definition.)

The repition of roles would be more like how you pitted Gladiator and Templar together. Now you've pitted two Tank jobs under one class, and given no variance to the Class umbrella itself. You'll only ever take up Gladiator if you're intereted in tanking, and that just a flat out limited mechanic. Where as tieing Dark Knight to Gladiator means you've given Gladiator two differnent roles to the class that will attract different styles of players, while, at the exact same time they're leveling Gladiator to be a tank like Paladin, they also now have opened up options to be a damage dealer if they need be, by having Dark Knight available through doing the quests.

Mirror that exact situation in reverse for Lancers and Dragoon/Templar. And again for Archers and Bard/Rangers.

You create differing roles that a single Class can bring, rather than pigeon-holing one role to a class.

You try to pin ninja to thief, but what pourpose would that serve? What other job would you branch off of 'Thief' which in an of itself is clearly a "Job" rather than a "Class". Remember, Jobs are the specific iconic jobs given to us by previous Final Fantasy games. So Thief as a Class is out of the picture to begin with. This isn't 'Red Mage > Red Wizard' style evolution here. It's far more closer to Final Fantasy Tactics and their branching class evolutions.

I am sorry to hear you don't like the idea of the system, but it's pretty much the evolution of what we got by any determinable means logically. I'll flat out call it a prediction rather than an idea at this point. It's pretty much the only way they can maintain the approach they seem to be set upon.


The question for me remains, just how maliable will the new Class skills be? Say if a Two Handed gladiator wanted to be mroe tanky, could they swap out some of their main skills with some of there other class skills (Such as Rampart) to make themselves more durable if they wish. It could wind up that the 15 slots locked to our class could be swappable with other slots that open up within our own class later down the line. Which could make for some very interesting combinations.

However in terms of longevity, I don't believe the system will support more than two jobs per class, not without too much identity overlay anyways.

[Alokin1988]

Am I the only one who doesn't like DRK coming from Gladiator? I can see it I just think it would be more fitting if it came from Marauder since the axe and scythe closer to one another than sword and scythe. Also I wouldn't mind seeing some classes get alternate weapons. Nothing too drastically different just different versions of what they already have. For example the gladiator could get 2 handed sword and the marauder could gain 1 handed axes.

As far as the class to job system goes I would like to see it done like this.

Gladiator = Paladin. Samurai.
Marauder = Warrior. Dark Knight.
Lancer = Dragoon.
Archer = Ranger.
Musketeer = Corsair. Chemist.
Musician = Dancer. Bard. Puppet Master?

Just some ideas really. More interested in seeing what everyone else can come up with.

[Draucant]

Hopefully what Hyrist is saying is true if they have 1 job = 2 classes. I also wouldn't mind if it was just 1/1 ratio but comments from the team seems to lean towards 1/2 ratio. As long as equipping 1 weapon has different abilities than the other weapon it will be fine. They can even keep the same weaponskills but just have benefits of the combos be different.

[Ruisu]

All i know is, Scythe <Can I have it?>

You should try playing Botanist more often.

On a serious note, Scythes were incredibly lame. I was disappointed that I was better off using these than Greatswords as a DRK in XI.

[Amsai]

How? In terms of role, Ninja would be more of an evasive tank style like it is in FFXI, or more in terms of magic damage where as Samurai would be your straight physical damage role. (Side-note, Samurai without a Katna would upset QUITE a few, and there's absolutely no way you can give a Lancer a Katana, as it breaks class definition.)

Sorry, I got ahead of myself on that one. There has been strong backlash from FFXI and FFXIV against Ninja being a tank class. So Ill make the prediction if SE makes Ninja it will be a stealth like job with some possible hybrid like abilities (ninjutsu and katana) That is the tie in to its "classic" relation to theif and Thief was what I was worried about being over shadowed by Ninja or vise versa. Besides difference in Ninja and Samurai is night and day, though I do have to agree Sam w/o Katana would probably make some people unhappy. Not saying I have all the answers here, but some stuff works, some stuff is something I'd have to endure, and some stuff would just be a deal breaker as it relates to the Class to multiple jobs debaucle. The only clear way to fix this is if they had just gone with Jobs, using job stones, allowing for multiple weapons per job, and keeping a crossclassing system similar to what we have now. Basically you wouldnt have 1 subjob like in FFXI, it would feel more like having multiple subjobs (within reason and some limitations obviously).

The repition of roles would be more like how you pitted Gladiator and Templar together. Now you've pitted two Tank jobs under one class, and given no variance to the Class umbrella itself. You'll only ever take up Gladiator if you're intereted in tanking, and that just a flat out limited mechanic. Where as tieing Dark Knight to Gladiator means you've given Gladiator two differnent roles to the class that will attract different styles of players, while, at the exact same time they're leveling Gladiator to be a tank like Paladin, they also now have opened up options to be a damage dealer if they need be, by having Dark Knight available through doing the quests.

Well they dont both have to be tanks either, Id just make PLD the tank and Templar a DD that specializes in Holy Damage or some such.

Mirror that exact situation in reverse for Lancers and Dragoon/Templar. And again for Archers and Bard/Rangers.

You create differing roles that a single Class can bring, rather than pigeon-holing one role to a class.

You try to pin ninja to thief, but what pourpose would that serve? What other job would you branch off of 'Thief' which in an of itself is clearly a "Job" rather than a "Class". Remember, Jobs are the specific iconic jobs given to us by previous Final Fantasy games. So Thief as a Class is out of the picture to begin with. This isn't 'Red Mage > Red Wizard' style evolution here. It's far more closer to Final Fantasy Tactics and their branching class evolutions.

Again, dont have all the answers, but my quick answer would be to make a class that is basically "Thief" even if its not named that and make Ninja the job. Even better would be a seperate role of Rogue (class) = Thief (Job) and Shinobi (class) = Ninja (Job). Though I do feel having more than one stealth class would be unneeded and create overlap and one being better than the other. Possibly Thief is stealth based attacks and maybe have ninja be heavy DoT WSs with some magic mixed in?

I am sorry to hear you don't like the idea of the system, but it's pretty much the evolution of what we got by any determinable means logically. I'll flat out call it a prediction rather than an idea at this point. It's pretty much the only way they can maintain the approach they seem to be set upon.

You absolutely could be right. BUT! Nothing they have said regarding this issue is set in stone. They have made a few comments in some interviews about these sort of things, then a community rep swooped in at some point and said things like PLD becoming DRK and Thief coming from Archer were just a "for instance" and not fact. We just have to wait and see, who knows SE could turn around and suprise both of us in strange and disturbing directions we never thought of........ lol or wanted too.

The question for me remains, just how maliable will the new Class skills be? Say if a Two Handed gladiator wanted to be mroe tanky, could they swap out some of their main skills with some of there other class skills (Such as Rampart) to make themselves more durable if they wish. It could wind up that the 15 slots locked to our class could be swappable with other slots that open up within our own class later down the line. Which could make for some very interesting combinations.

However in terms of longevity, I don't believe the system will support more than two jobs per class, not without too much identity overlay anyways.

Interesting combinations and varied builds for sure, but it all seems overly complicated to me at some point. Not in a deep conspiracy novel way either, more like a "what a pain in the ass, why would you even...." way. Long story short, have to wait and see. They either do what I hope, or they dont and I adjust, or I /ragequit and go play something else (lol like I could find something else that compared)