Should WHM get a personal damage buff?

[RopeDrink]

I have no interest in crunching numbers or comparing semi-serious me vs batches of logs from the pros in top-content, given such exploration leads to the lesser-played portion when you consider the game as a whole. I may never see Kefka-Savage, so how I stock up vs 360-370il WHM in top-tier content as a semi-casual 356il won't matter so much - but even from the little I do see, I know I'm far from incapable of producing solid damage numbers, and the AoE is just gross. Yes, SCH isn't far behind in that regard, yet they also aren't producing AoE stuns alongside it, and (for all I know) may not share the same MP freedom, which means you can do more than required. Having said that, I consciously avoid SCH and AST - I have no desire to play them, thus I can't talk about them in any way.

Ultimately, WHM is in a good place right now - not amazing, far from terrible. People like me can live with being dungeon-centric and certainly don't see the need for further damage increases, especially considering how easy it is to provide what we are currently capable of. I'll leave the nit-picking to those who are actually effected by top-tier metas that may decide to exclude them due to their chosen class, yet I have a feeling (due to SE's supposed attitude towards DPS/Healing) that not much will change, regardless of the community consensus. Given our pure-healing status, I'm happy to see that we're at least, on average, the middle-road DPS. Throwing more on-top of it doesn't really solve much, as in curing one issue, you then highlight something wrong with another. The gap between AST and SCH already looks pretty gruesome.

[EaMett]

I don't feel this is true anymore. WHM has received a lot of really good tools with SB. Yes AST + SCH will still be the "meta" unless something changes, but WHM as it currently is will never be in the spot it was in HW.

A lot of good tools? You mean two good tools and a broken mechanic outside of progression.
They reduced our mana management which gives whm an edge on other healers during progression but is pointless beyond that point. Again as tiers progress, mana management doesn't necessarily get harder. The more gear AST and SCH get the less the gap between classes on this matter. The need for sustained high HPS also diminishes.

The other good tool is DB. Lets face it, it's awesome no denying it. Doesn't make or break the WHM, but it's a good tool to use for that little extra uptime. Again as people get more vit the actual -need- for a shield lowers. But WHM was never not meta at the end of HW because of it's lack of shields. At the very least one shield on cooldown is not going to factor in.

What about PI? Provides good HPS burst ontop of the existing toolkit but this is really pointless overall unless the future becomes solo healer meta. It's an extra cushion that has little use outside of progression. It's actually a bit of an insult to the class because it's hard enough not having your hots overheal as is, so what do they do? Add a skill that helps you top people up and that only works right after you place said hots. Blergh, at least it has good synergy with cure III.

I won't even mention Lilies.

We're coming full circle with the shortcomings that people highlighted during the stormblood craze. The only difference with back then is that people didn't realize how strong WHM would be during the progression phases. When that withers out it'll be back to square one.

Back on the topic of healer dps. SCH has significantly better personal dps compared to WHM in savage raid settings. I think neo exdeath has been the only exception since the 4.0 launch.
The way it works is that WHM has better dummy damage but has a much harder time keeping boss uptime which makes them fall behind. On average we're talking 250-ish extra personal dps for SCH. Add to that the fact that chain stratagem is anywhere from 300 extra raid dps to 500+ and SCH dps towers over WHM.

The raid DPS for each healer goes something like this : WHM < AST (+200ish over WHM) < SCH (+300ish above AST) . Very loose numbers based on 99% parses over multiple fights. To give you an idea of how loose it is, on average this tier in savage I think SCH does about 700 more rdps than WHM and AST around 400 more though that' harder to tell because of the RNG based model (but I've been downplaying numbers for consistency across other %iles).

PS: Because I know this will come up I'm just clarifying. The reason why I look at savage content only is twofold. First off all, the other content is a mess, a great chunk of the parses are from people who don't know the fights well or don't know how to leverage their classes. This is easily noticeable by how relatively easy it is to get orange parses even in ex trials compared to savage. And don't get me started on normal mode raids where you can hit orange even if you die, and where 99%iles are all cheesed because hardly any healing is required.
The other reason is that there is value in comparing top tier players instead of the masses. People with very optimized gameplay will highlight the real discrepancy between classes much better than anyone else. Even though most of us experience a mix of player levels on a daily basis and might not find that those numbers reflect our personal experience, they still are the most accurate source of information we have on class differences.

[VanilleFang]

A lot of good tools? You mean two good tools

Yes, Lilies are trash. But that aside...

Maybe tools was the wrong word. Maybe I should have just said WHM was buffed very well?

Lucid Dreaming is better than Shroud of Saints, Bene has a reduced CD, and Assize has a reduced CD. PI is kind of better than you are giving it credit for. It's not the best ability but it's still more raw healing for free, meaning more free time and MP for other things. I use it all the time after Medica IIs.

I also think you are down playing how good Thin Air and Divine Benison are.

I'm looking at it like this: savage is not the only thing that needs to be balanced. WHM is ridiculously good in pretty much anything with PUGs, so if we were to buff WHM just to be stronger in savage than we will also buff WHM in everything else. It would break the job. WHM is already considered (by a slight margin) by many, the best healer outside savage(general consensus I have gathered). Why should we buff it for savage? Right now WHMs are having no issue getting into savage, so what exactly is the issue?

I've said this already but I'll say it again: WHM as it is now will never be in the same spot it was in HW.

If we do eventually see "no whm" PUGs as a norm than I'll come back and admit that I was. Can't see it happening though.

[Risvertasashi]

All in all I just don't think it's fair to call the gap in WHM and SCH dps anything more than what it is - small.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I was kind of remembering earlier times before it had normalized, I guess.

That said, there's one thing to note. AST makes a rather large tradeoff for its utility in terms of personal DPS. SCH doesn't and gets it all. If healer balance becomes a problem, it'll be WHM and AST fighting over a slot, while SCH is guaranteed as always.

Finally let's not forget that the whole game isn't Savage. WHM completely dominates the dungeon scene with it's AoE dps. WHM has basically no mp restrictions beyond not needlessly spamming AoE heals or raising so many people you're likely to wipe anyways.

WHM MP management actually is a thing in savage. That aside... Both you and Vanille have made this argument, and I have a problem with it.

I don't particularly think healer balance needs to be touched right now, but saying "it's good in dungeons" really is useless. As an example, both SMN and BLM have had times where they're so far from meta, PFs leaders lock them out of content. "But they have amazing dungeon aoe!" doesn't really help in that sort of situation. It's the raids that define the metas, and what people are and aren't willing to bring along in content that requires a preformed party.

You could delete Holy out of the game completely, and it would not affect this type of standing.

In fact, it's worth mentioning that was the situation of mid to late HW WHM. It was good in dungeons then too. Not much consolation when nearly every PF was locking you out.

But just to reiterate for anyone that skims: I'm not saying healer balance particularly needs to be touched right now.

[EaMett]

Oh I'm not saying WHM needs a buff. I initially posted here saying it definitely didn't. It's an entry level healer that is easier to play and easier to dps with than the others. Has the best AoE and burst dps of all three. I was making the point that WHM needed some changes but those changes weren't in the numbers.

I'm just being critical of the choice of skills provided since 4.0. If they wanted WHM to stay a pure healer they should have focused on skills based around the hot mechanics of the class rather than the poorly pieced together options we have today. Things like being able to consume the hots, or maybe pause them, etc..

I'm also pointing out that the difference between WHM and the other healers will really not be that different than it was towards the end of HW (once all content was out, I can't speak for progression as I did none last expansion). It remains a fact hat WHM doesn't scale as well with skill or gear as the other two. Given how healing checks diminish with gear as well, most of it's power will be locked out and unused. Hence why other healers are naturally preferred.
Also, I've already seen plenty of party finders that exclude WHM this tier. It's still a thing and we aren't even past progression phases yet.

[Risvertasashi]

Also, I've already seen plenty of party finders that exclude WHM this tier. It's still a thing and we aren't even past progression phases yet.

Sort of. Yeah, some PFs do that, but not that many. And yet... There's actually far more top statics running WHM+SCH than SCH+AST. But there isn't a single AST+WHM comp in the top 100 that I could find.

[EaMett]

Sort of. Yeah, some PFs do that, but not that many. And yet... There's actually far more top statics running WHM+SCH than SCH+AST. But there isn't a single AST+WHM comp in the top 100 that I could find.

Yeah, it's a little tricky though. It's hard to get a good feel for volume given how fflogs works. I haven't looked into it but I do get the feeling that WHM+SCH has been the preferred progression comp. Because PUGs are a little random in skill I think people also currently enjoy that "comfort comp" in PF.

But otherwise it seems like statics with WHM tend to be pretty low on the list as a general rule. Which makes sense since when dealing with 99%iles the top parties would all naturally be be SCH+AST. The difference in rdps among those parties is pretty small and the rdps between those healer comps is significant enough to way in.
I did AST+WHM last tier and it's a little awkward to optimize healer dps because both healers are pretty healing GCD reliant. Could be a reason.

[Eloah]

I'm not really seeing anyone mention it, unless I missed it, but it's not as simple as saying raid or dungeon. While the gap has decreased do to the changes that came out in Stormblood WHM, SCH, and AST, are all still in the same places they have been.

WHM, has the best burst DPS, not to mention the best AoE, MP management being in your favor. SCH, has the best sustained DPS, and the second best AoE, with an AoE spell that has no deminishing return. AST, is last with lackluster burst, sustained, and AoE damage, but they mainly bolster their party members DPS.

So the shorter you expect the fight to be WHM is better, the longer SCH is better, and dead center would be AST, who needs more time to burst things down when compared to WHM, but less time then SCH.

[MoroMurasaki]

But just to reiterate for anyone that skims: I'm not saying healer balance particularly needs to be touched right now.

I feel like you need to really read the post that you're quoting there.

I am reminding you/the thread that not the entire game is Savage and that WHM does have strengths you aren't considering. Your rebuttal was essentially "but that doesn't help in Savage" which makes me feel like you're skimming my post and not reading what you're responding to.

WHM being good in dungeons is not useless. Many, many more players run dungeons every day than will ever participate in Savage. Perhaps your perspective only allows for balancing around one end of that gradient but the game as a whole has to consider the entire playerbase.

You continue to reiterate that you dont believe healers need any adjustments right now - that's cool, we agree there. What I don't understand is why you seem so ready to point at SCH and say it's so much stronger. It just isn't. It has a different kit that allows for it to better handle certain situations but it has no huge lead on WHM right now, especially not when you take into account the gapin skill requirements between the two.

[Tridus]

Let Stone IV generate lilies at 33% or something. With 3 Lilies, let me fire off a high power oGCD nuke.

There, a single target DPS boost when you can spend the GCDs to DPS, and lilies do something people actually want.