Some possibly controversial thoughts about a dancer addition

[Singularity]

The same skill doesn't have to have the same animation for every character. I acknowledge that it's more animation work for the developers to create multiple sets of movements, but it's better than the extreme of locking off the job entirely to half the playerbase. There's also plenty of real-world inspiration to copy - dancers have been both male and female for as long as dancing has existed.

[BillyKaplan]

I acknowledge that it's more animation work for the developers to create multiple sets of movements, but it's better than the extreme of locking off the job entirely to half the playerbase.

Or. OR. You can just have all genders use the same dance animations. To stress the point, if you already acknowledge there's a set of movements that you'd accept for male charas, why not just have that be the unisex movement set instead of insist on what you imagine as a more feminine movement set? Boom, one movement set for everyone without even getting people complaining the male Roes know how to spin around themselves.

I don't want one or the other. I want both, intersecting no more or less than seems natural.

Most arguments about gender and sex where the word 'natural' is thrown ends up in examples from nature that show humans' views on both concepts is not only subjective for the individual, but also bullocks besides. Tread carefully.
Or let the male Roe dance fancily. It's not illegal.

[Singularity]

Or. OR. You can just have all genders use the same dance animations. To stress the point, if you already acknowledge there's a set of movements that you'd accept for male charas, why not just have that be the unisex movement set instead of insist on what you imagine as a more feminine movement set? Boom, one movement set for everyone without even getting people complaining the male Roes know how to spin around themselves.

Your own example of the Sundrop dance answers that. It's based on a traditionally masculine dance, so of course it looks more natural performed by male characters.
Sure you can program both genders to animate the same way, but if you intend them to look dignified and elegant, you probably shouldn't.

[BillyKaplan]

Your own example of the Sundrop dance answers that. It's based on a traditionally masculine dance, so of course it looks more natural performed by male characters.

My own example was to stress the problem at the core of the matter and was introduced as a joke, not to be used to support this. I HATE that the women barely move when they perform that dance, which is why I was so happy that they actually move when performing the Moonlift dance. And oh look, they CAN move in the exact same way as the guys, like most of the optional dances in the game. Mog dance, Gold dance, Thavnairian dance - how's that for male charas moving fluidly and dare I say seductively? It already exists in the game.

if you intend them to look dignified and elegant, you probably shouldn't.

A highly subjective take which I disagree with you about.

This reminds me of the latest summer event where if I dared enjoy the physique of the male charas in their banana hammocks I frigging lost the quest. Sorry for also being into guys, SE.

[Singularity]

My own example was to stress the problem at the core of the matter and was introduced as a joke, not to be used to support this. I HATE that the women barely move when they perform that dance, which is why I was so happy that they actually move when performing the Moonlift dance.

It nonetheless is an example in-point. If the OP was concerned about movements that look inappropriate or absurd when performed by one gender or the other, then simply implementing the same skill with multiple animations would be a workable solution.

To stress the point, if you already acknowledge there's a set of movements that you'd accept for male charas, why not just have that be the unisex movement set instead of insist on what you imagine as a more feminine movement set?

That would potentially create the same problem in reverse for female characters. I haven't insisted on anything. I was simply pointing out that the OP's concerns could be addressed in a less extreme manner than implementing a whole job for one gender only.

[BillyKaplan]

It nonetheless is an example in-point. If the OP was concerned about movements that look inappropriate or absurd when performed by one gender or the other, then simply implementing the same skill with multiple animations would be a workable solution.

Movements are gender neutral. And as I said before in my post that you ignored completely, we already have examples where females perform masculine movements while men perform what some might call feminine. What you find to be 'absurd' is highly subjective and if you do find a male Roe performing the near eastern or even far eastern dances to be 'ridiculous' I recommend taking a moment to think about the why of the matter. And if you want to say their size is the matter, ask yourself if you're equally bothered by a fem Roe performing the same moves.

That would potentially create the same problem in reverse for female characters.

Because you're thinking in extremes. It's not a binary switch, it's a scale. Not every dance has to be the Sundrop.

[Singularity]

Movements are gender neutral. And as I said before in my post that you ignored completely, we already have examples where females perform masculine movements while men perform what some might call feminine. What you find to be 'absurd' is highly subjective and if you do find a male Roe performing the near eastern or even far eastern dances to be 'ridiculous' I recommend taking a moment to think about the why of the matter. And if you want to say their size is the matter, ask yourself if you're equally bothered by a fem Roe performing the same moves.



Because you're thinking in extremes. It's not a binary switch, it's a scale. Not every dance has to be the Sundrop.

Not every dance has to be exactly the same either (and indeed, we also have examples where the movements are not the same). You're right that absurdity is subjective, but the perspective that matters is that of SE. Considering their track record, how would you imagine they would regard the matter?

[Shurrikhan]

Most arguments about gender and sex where the word 'natural' is thrown ends up in examples from nature that show humans' views on both concepts is not only subjective for the individual, but also bullocks besides. Tread carefully.
Or let the male Roe dance fancily. It's not illegal.

Let me put it this way then. I would be pissed if my Lala was attempting to grapple enemies five times its size. It could control a limb, sure, but not the whole body of the opponent; it's physically impossible. Which is why I'm glad the Monk animation, while frequently ridiculous, are at least not imbalanced in that ridiculousness.

Dance is not a contact art, but rather largely free-form and self-contained. Its iteration in game will likely be a mixture of the two, yet I trust that at least the contact will make sense for all sizes and genders, at least to the degree than Monk and Ninja, as fellow small-weapons melee classes, have managed it. But I've no precedent yet on which to base my expectations for the self-contained side of their animations. Thus I am voicing my concerns. I do not pretend to speak for everyone in doing so. If you prefer that male Roegadyns be doing ballet spins as a form of combat, then that is of course your opinion to hold. Mine simply happens to run contrary to it.

And while, again, I don't pretend to speak for everyone, there is at least a consistent cultural basis for a shift in what is seen as beautiful, impactful, or inspiring between large- and small-bodied dancers, of what seems "natural" to it. These things do not occur almost universally for thousands of years of a given artform with absolutely no basis or commonality of taste. Yes, it's subjective. But a survey of opinion, with its every point tallied subjective, is still a sample size approximating objective data: to what portion or extend is the given thought... thought? What portion of historical gender divisions, including how beauty is perceived therebetween, may be tautological is irrelevant; we're talking about a traditionally-derived job, in a setting that has its own gender conventions, and comes from a franchise with certain gender conventions woven through its length. It will adhere to them. To attempt to dismiss any and all precedents that may seem spurious to you on the basis that they are merely "human" systems -- What, is there a lively Chimpanzee discussion on 16th Century French Rivera Waltzes? -- or subjective -- As is any "good" book or film, mind you -- is a far more slippery slope than of what you're cautioning me.

Or. OR. You can just have all genders use the same dance animations. To stress the point, if you already acknowledge there's a set of movements that you'd accept for male charas, why not just have that be the unisex movement set instead of insist on what you imagine as a more feminine movement set? Boom, one movement set for everyone without even getting people complaining the male Roes know how to spin around themselves.

Or, or... if in the eyes of the vast majority of players the animation looks right for all sizes and genders, then save development costs and use it accordingly, and if it doesn't, then don't? Or, heavens forbid, maybe actually work some of the game lore into what we actually see in playable content or in-combat, instead of it relegating almost solely it to cutscenes and in-game books? Would it really hurt that much if we got to see a bit more of the Sea Wolf or Hellsguard cultures by having something unique to those, or Keepers of the Moon culture in dances unique to them? I'm all for discussing cost-to-output of development costs, but let's not pretend that strictly unisex animations are anything but a limitation.

Because you're thinking in extremes. It's not a binary switch, it's a scale. Not every dance has to be the Sundrop.

Now that I'll wholly agree with.

[BillyKaplan]

I'm all for discussing cost-to-output of development costs, but let's not pretend that strictly unisex animations are anything but a limitation.

You're mixing up racial differences and gender differences. An Elezen that comes from the Shroud will naturally differ in culture from any Lalafell, and likely differ from other Elezen depending on Wildwood vs. Duskwight. That said, unless they make it all about your chara taking their culture and incorporating it into the job, I don't see room for it in the DNC job. All jobs so far, while allowing you to integrate renovations (DRG comes to mind) were largely about tapping into the abilities and skills already existing within your Soul Crystal and abiding by your mentor chara's route. That leaves not as much room for racial differences, and again I should hope they won't go overboard with the differences based on gender. Because let's face it, going by this game's track record it's almost certain that male charas will get shafted, and I just don't trust them to pull a BRD again

Not every dance has to be exactly the same either (and indeed, we also have examples where the movements are not the same). You're right that absurdity is subjective, but the perspective that matters is that of SE. Considering their track record, how would you imagine they would regard the matter?

SE would scrap male charas from the game if not for the PR backlash.

[Singularity]

All jobs so far, while allowing you to integrate renovations (DRG comes to mind) were largely about tapping into the abilities and skills already existing within your Soul Crystal and abiding by your mentor chara's route. That leaves not as much room for racial differences, and again I should hope they won't go overboard with the differences based on gender.

Well, from a lore perspective, the job crystals (MCH excepted) all talk about the "myriad deeds of <job>s from ages past", so your dancer crystal would presumably have been owned by many dancers before you and thus contain a wide range of dance motions.

Because let's face it, going by this game's track record it's almost certain that male charas will get shafted, and I just don't trust them to pull a BRD again

That's a genuine concern, but it's a separate issue from merely having different motions. Neither gender deserves to get animations of lesser quality, nor to have motions intended exclusively for the other one shoehorned into its animation set.