Idea to fix controversy about healer dps.

[Dualgunner]

"Some of you" like I'm in a conglomerate of people here. That was my first post in the thread silly. You'll also have to forgive me questioning your logic when the lion's share of your examples mandate unsynching the content.

[KisaiTenshi]

If you did this no one would want to play healer because the stress level is way too high for the average gamer. You talk about not wanting to make it an e-sport but having this level of required healing would force the healer to have 200% all the time to ensure their tank doesn't die. You're essentially saying a tank takes 50% of their HP in damage every GCD with a number like that. If a non-tank dies in seconds that's 50K damage going across the table instantly.

Using current mechanics that means you'd need to be hitting that Cure II / Benefic II / Adlo button constantly. There isn't room for error or any other choice either as any other GCD use would basically mean you can't heal the tank before the next auto splatters them across the floor.

So which is it, do you want the healer to constantly be pressing buttons, or having time to "do nothing?" You can't have it both ways, and clearly the status quo makes people annoyed. The DPS have no problem constantly pressing buttons, but they can "do nothing" and all it does is make the fight take longer. With the healer "doing nothing" should mean an instant wipe.

[Miste]

I believe the first time I encountered speedrunning big pulls it was "The Lost City of Amdapor" in patch 2.2, but became a problem with Brayflox Longstop (hard)) initially I had no idea how to keep them alive as I was having to use Cure II on them to the point of MP exhaustion even after exhausting tetra and benediction. But no speed runners? No issue.

2.0 Holy was far more powerful. You can use Holy+Assize (which has a wider range) to destroy all the bombs in Brayflox Longstop Hard or can use it to blow away the bombs in the same dungeon, and in The Keeper of the Lake.

Two times now you have mentioned abilities that you don't have at level 50 when explaining situations from level 50 dungeons back in 2.0.

Yes you can undersize them now unsync, but you were talking about "back in 2.0" so it is getting a bit confusing on what point you are trying to make.

The whole idea you've been posting in here is "back in 2.0 things were like this", but you are using examples with abilities or spells you wouldn't have in 2.0. Unsyncing 2.0 content in 4.0 isn't a good representation of 2.0.

Your memory of 2.0 doesn't seem to be very accurate going by what you've said so far.

Because everything apparently matters when we are having a discussion about game design and why previous things were changed. 2.x and 3.x had Cleric Stance, therefor "non-DPS" healers were a direct result of that mechanic being error prone. With 4.0 there is really no reason not to DPS, but you still see people traumatized by that meta and won't.

Does it matter? Are people really traumatized by a game? The connotation on that word seems a bit extreme.

I mean if you can prove it with some statistical data that shows that a large subset of players avoid playing healers and/or use zero healer DPS spells due to being traumatized by 2.0-3.0 Cleric Stance and META then I will listen, but I don't think you have any such data.

You do realize that some healers just don't DPS because they are lazy right? Believe me it exists. Not every healer who does zero DPS is due to lack of skill or because they are afraid of the meta or traumatized as you so put it.

Some healers even refuse simply on the principle of it. Like I said before people have outright said "I could do more to contribute and help my party by DPSing but I feel healers shouldn't have to DPS so I won't."

It's like sorry, but the game doesn't support a pure healer mentality.

[HyoMinPark]

It's not. That was an example of the mechanic (bombs). Baelsar's Wall has the same mechanic. If you do Brayflox Longstop hard, solo unsynced you can destroy all the bombs period. I recall someone else bragging that they could use assize in Baelsar's Wall to do the same thing.

More to the point, some of you need to stop having tunnel vision in posts. I described the mechanic, because I was describing what it would be used on. You can just as easily cast holy twice with swiftcast, but you only get one use of it.

Uhm...the bombs in Brayflox HM is an entirely different mechanic than the adds in the second boss of Baelsar’s Wall (assuming this is what you’re talking about, because this is the only mechanic I can think of aside from the swords during Griffin, in which you just destroy the middle one and ignore the others).... The adds in the second boss are adds; you’re supposed to destroy them. The bombs in Brayflox HM you just need to knock away so that, when they explode, they don’t hit the party. Same with the Keeper of the Lake Ceruleum Tanks; you aren’t supposed to destroy them, but knock them away.

You should pick better examples when making your arguments. Your Brayflox example was already bad enough, considering you were trying to illustrate the use of a skill that you can’t even use if you’re running the content “properly” (i.e., synced).

[Ghishlain]

So which is it, do you want the healer to constantly be pressing buttons, or having time to "do nothing?" You can't have it both ways, and clearly the status quo makes people annoyed. The DPS have no problem constantly pressing buttons, but they can "do nothing" and all it does is make the fight take longer. With the healer "doing nothing" should mean an instant wipe.

You know, for all the talk of "understanding developer intent" you certainly seem to have a lack of understanding that healing in this game. The healing in this game was basically designed to be "babys first steps to healing" which in turn leads to significant downtime for those of us who are cut from a more hardcore MMO fabric.

If you suddenly tuned the content to require "100% healing GCD uptime", you've pretty much shattered that image fully and probably turn off more people from healing than actually removing their DPS spells. Again, this shows a lack of understanding from you.

Also stop broadly generalizing anyone that disagrees with your argument as a blanket "them". It does your position no justice if you can't see the forest from the trees.

For me personally - I'd rather healers understand what it takes to balance their healing-tools and their non-healer tools and have the knowledge and adaptability to respond to situations as they occur while making use of as many tools in their toolkit as possible.

I want healers to constantly be pushing buttons, but I want them to be constantly pushing correct buttons. With your design, as soon as a healer pushes an "incorrect" button (which can be incredibly arbitrary depending on the situation), you'll wipe. Period. End of story. And it would be completely the healer's fault. 100% of the time.

To use a DDR analogy, you're essentially asking every healer to be able to SSS every song in the game on the first attempt at song.

This is no different then what you seem to think the pro-healer DPS crowd is perpetuating about having a 95th percentile+ DPS.

Both are expecting an equal level of perfection.

And now, in conclusion, I'll just requote Cassandra here:

Healers must maximize their DPS!
Healers should attempt to weave DPS between heals whenever possible (Always Be Casting)
Healers only heal and nothing else!

You don't seem to believe there is something between option 1 and option 3. If you do believe, you are incredibly terrible at stating that in any coherent form.

[Jade3173]

if they did something akin to putting AST's card system on the GCD so you have something to do with your GCD that wasn't DPSing when healing wasn't needed, I'd switch back to healer in a heartbeat. As it stands I got tried of being the "green DPS" and having a lot of healing downtime being filled by....spamming Malefic and the occasional Combust. Wonder how many, like myself, got tried of that and simply left the healer role to fulfill our "true calling", being a DPS.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

There's your entitlement showing again. While I think Jump Potion users are Lazy, they are the same boat as the people playing Satasha the first time, and if their only experience with MMORPG's is other zerg-style dungeon games like Mabinogi then they are not going to learn how to do anything unless they fail.

... what?

It's entitlement to expect someone who decides to skip the vast majority of their leveling to do their own research instead of queuing into content completely ignorant to how their job even functions? Are you be deliberately obtuse? Someone brand new to the game entering Satasha is not the same as someone skipping ahead and queuing into Sirensong. You shouldn't be learning your job at level 60+.

[KisaiTenshi]

Your memory of 2.0 doesn't seem to be very accurate going by what you've said so far.

Nothing in 4.0 is a good example of 2.0, unsynced or not. WHM lost a good chunk of their kit to the "role actions" or did you forget that too? 2.0 had a clear design intent around a trinity that did not exist in 1.0. From what I understand the "trinity" itself was lifted from GW2, a game I have not played and can not describe. So if we're going to keep having this argument about roles, it's relevant to consider what the developer had intended, and not keep spamming "but the meta" which is what people were doing at the end of 3.0 to berate players who hated cleric stance, not just players who were being intentional trolls about it.

Does it matter? Are people really traumatized by a game? The connotation on that word seems a bit extreme.

Ask yourself why 95% of the players don't play the high end raids/extremes, still. You can't PUG them, players will abandon after any wipe.

https://minionguide.com/minion/faustlet
Only 8.38% have cleared Alexander Savage and got the Minion

77.35% have Puff of Darkness from World of Darkness
70.67% have cleared Alexander and have the Toy Alexander
59.8% have Wind up Echidna from the Void Ark
28.1% have Wind-up Calofisteri from The Weeping City of Mhach
32.15% have Sophic Lanner from Containment Bay P1T6 (Extreme)
27.7% have Demonic Lanner from Containment Bay Z1T9 (Extreme)


17.85% have Reveling Kamuy (Mount) from Susano Extreme
6.99% have Auspicious Kamuy (Mount) from Jade Stoa Extreme
5.74% have Air Force (Mount) from Sigmascape 4.0 Extreme
3.72% have Legendary Kamuy (Mount) from Shinryu Extreme

There's currently no mount or minion for completing The Royal City of Rabanastre,

This doesn't even take into account intentional carries from people selling clears or farming them for the mounts/minions/gear.

I mean if you can prove it with some statistical data that shows that a large subset of players avoid playing healers and/or use zero healer DPS spells due to being traumatized by 2.0-3.0 Cleric Stance and META then I will listen, but I don't think you have any such data.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...286-13-2017%29

Cleric Stance
0:30:42
From Patch 4.0, the magic attack potency for healers will no longer be calculated using intelligence, but instead will be based on mind. You can think of this as being in Cleric Stance at all times. Cleric Stance has been changed to a healer role action, and the effect will be changed to where it will increase the attack magic potency for a certain duration. With this change, players will no longer need to use Cleric Stance again to switch out of the stance. Please note that this adjustment wasn’t made so that healers are forced to deal damage more often, but to simplify the controls and to make it easier for new players to play at the start. As this is now a role action, players have the option to set this ability or not.

Synergy between Jobs
0:35:51
When challenging a high-difficulty raid, we understand that players would often select jobs based on whether the setup could raise the overall party’s DPS. For this reason, in Patch 4.0, we made adjustments while considering the party’s total DPS.

Up until 4.0, players did intentionally avoid DPS as a healer because the mechanic for it was awful, and the direct consequence of that mechanic created a situation where players did not want to play any content that they may get berated for not performing perfectly in. After 4.0 now it's tunnel-vision, players now feel they are required to, and thus far more wipes happen as a result.

You do realize that some healers just don't DPS because they are lazy right?

You do realize that there are many people, on the server we play on, are trolls about this right? I'd hazard to guess that the number of times this actually happens is a lot closer to zero than there are posts made on the topic. It's far more likely that players that don't want to, were already pissed off or traumatized from some player telling what to do in a condescending or rude way that they decided that you can't be blamed for doing your job.

There are entire research documents on how effective coaching results in less anxiety about performing something, and all you guys want to do is tear down people who are trying for not being perfect.

If you want that to change, stop the bullying. Do you really need to post that insulting thing about another player to the "let's vent" thread? Maybe let that go and instead post things that you personally screwed up and others can learn from.

If you suddenly tuned the content to require "100% healing GCD uptime", you've pretty much shattered that image fully and probably turn off more people from healing than actually removing their DPS spells. Again, this shows a lack of understanding from you.

There is no lack of understanding going on here. Hardcores want healers always pushing buttons. If the healer is not doing their job, the tank dies, they die, and the dps die all within 15 seconds. None of the content in the game is even remotely tuned that way, and in some content you can even have have two healers doing "nothing".

Other games power creep eventually make old content solo-able as fast as you can run from from the entrance to the boss room. There is no replayability once you level past that content.

... what?

It's entitlement to expect someone who decides to skip the vast majority of their leveling to do their own research instead of queuing into content completely ignorant to how their job even functions? Are you be deliberately obtuse? Someone brand new to the game entering Satasha is not the same as someone skipping ahead and queuing into Sirensong. You shouldn't be learning your job at level 60+.

They absolutely are the same, only the job pot person has not played the content and has no experience. You can watch as many videos as you want on someone else playing the game, but that does not give them the previous 4 years of experience other players would have on it. If you use the Jump pot, people are going to jump down your throat when you start missing all the things that a player with experience would have. Those jump pots are for players to skip ahead and play with their friends who already have that experience, not to "ez unlock" everything in the duty finder.

[Dualgunner]

Nothing in 4.0 is a good example of 2.0, unsynced or not. WHM lost a good chunk of their kit to the "role actions" or did you forget that too?

That's rich coming from someone who not long ago was talking about having tetra and assize in Brayflox HM. Okay, yes, 4.0 synched is still not 2.0, fair enough: that makes your examples look even worse though.

From what I understand the "trinity" itself was lifted from GW2, a game I have not played and can not describe.

You have it backwards, GW2 ditched the trinity entirely. FFXIV couldn't have lifted the trinity from a game that didn't have it.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/disc...inity-abscence

So if we're going to keep having this argument about roles, it's relevant to consider what the developer had intended, and not keep spamming "but the meta" which is what people were doing at the end of 3.0 to berate players who hated cleric stance, not just players who were being intentional trolls about it.

To be fair, dev intent is always < the meta. No game's devs are fully capable of controlling the player built meta.

[Kabooa]

Comments like this admit to ignoring a large part of all those threads.

"There's a controversy about DPS"

"No there isn't."

End thread.