please stop make the game easier.

[Kamatsu]

I think the problem with this is that most people don't realize that eventually everyone will increase in skill.

As much as people want to believe that 'games are made to have fun', there is a such thing as 'too easy' even for the most casual player. Most often they don't even realize it. Because they're casual. They don't have any concept of gleaning enjoyment from challenge. Most people don't and that's why they ask for nerfs in the first place.

Actually, as has been found out in other games - if you make the game harder people don't 'get better', they leave the game and go play something else. Why? Simple - because unlike what you seem to believe, not everyone finds challenging/hard content fun or enjoyable, not everyone wants to have to stress and think when playing games... they just want to unwind from hard day/week of work and just play games for fun.

I always find myself sadly amused by people like you, who seem to think your enjoyment is the "correct" way and that other's just haven't found it. Here's the truth - people have found their fun and do what they enjoy doing, and no matter how much you say "but but challenges and hard stuff is fun!", they will not find challenges and hard content fun. It's not that 'they don't realize it's fun!", it's that they do not find hard/challenging content fun.

And sorry, but games ARE meant for fun and enjoyment. Just what people find fun and enjoying differ's from person to person. Some people find it fun playing hard/challenging things, some find it fun just doing easy stuff that doesn't involve anything hard/challenging. neither is right or wrong, just different.
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The problem for game dev's is how do you balance this? How do you have a balance of content that can keep the most players happy? Make everything too easy and those who like hard/challenging content will complain. Whereas if you make it too hard the players who like easy content will leave the game for other games that offer easy gameplay.

Moreover, if they try and offer a more balanced level where some/majority of content is easy while keeping some content hard(er)... they will still get complaints from those who like hard/challenging content as well as from those who want/like easy content. And this is where FFXIV is - the vast majority of the content is easy, with some harder content (EX's, Savage, etc)... and has complaints from both sides.

[MilanFrozen]

So since you grossly misrepresented my argument I'll start off by trimming pieces of your argument that hold no value.

I always find myself sadly amused by people like you, who seem to think your enjoyment is the "correct" way and that other's just haven't found it.

Ad hominen - Who I am doesn't matter at all. All this does is make you look stuck up.

Also I don't recall stating anywhere in my argument that people aren't free to enjoy things how they want to.

As much as people want to believe that 'games are made to have fun', there is a such thing as 'too easy' even for the most casual player. Most often they don't even realize it. Because they're casual. They don't have any concept of gleaning enjoyment from challenge. Most people don't and that's why they ask for nerfs in the first place.

This states that "There is a such thing as 'too easy' even for most casual players". I also stated that most casual players do not even realize it. At what point does the horse become aware the carrot is attached to a string? Is it upon putting forth more effort than it deems the carrot is worth or upon indulging in it's taste? The answer is both for even a casual can dislike content for being too simple and even a casual is capable of being unaware that it is the carrot itself they are bored of.

Or perhaps you'd like to point out that I said "They don't have any concept of gleaning enjoyment from challenge.". Is this the part you took offense to? Being incapable of enjoying challenge does not beget negative connotation. With that said I could have worded it better. What was meant is that one who does not enjoy a challenge, does not seek it and therefore when it is met, calls for it to be removed.

It is not stated whether I agree or disagree with this viewpoint.

Next...

people have found their fun and do what they enjoy doing, and no matter how much you say "but but challenges and hard stuff is fun!", they will not find challenges and hard content fun. It's not that 'they don't realize it's fun!", it's that they do not find hard/challenging content fun.

Strawman - Where do I state "but but challenges and hard stuff is fun!" or anything close to it? The answer is I don't and you're creating an argument to fight that doesn't exist.

You may be surprised by this, but I actually don't think increasing general difficulty is the key to success and I don't actually enjoy the typical 'make it harder' content. Bullet sponge enemies are the least creative, least enjoyable method for increasing difficulty, but also the most popular. What I do enjoy is unique mechanics, a good story, great atmosphere and paths to individual achievement.

My statements were that games constantly become easier and more streamlined to a detrimental point. I provide circumstantial evidence later. A game with no challenge is not a game (for the point of a game is to provide challenge), but that does not mean it is a piece of a media that cannot be enjoyed. None of what I said was meant to be derogatory but spoken as perception. You took offense(clearly) when you didn't have to.



And although I don't think both of these are directed at me, they feel similar enough to lump together.

Actually, as has been found out in other games - if you make the game harder people don't 'get better', they leave the game and go play something else.

The problem for game dev's is how do you balance this? How do you have a balance of content that can keep the most players happy? Make everything too easy and those who like hard/challenging content will complain. Whereas if you make it too hard the players who like easy content will leave the game for other games that offer easy game play.

Do you have a single fact to back that up? What game has had an increase in difficulty that resulted in a quantifiable player loss?

While I can't argue that games die because they become too easy (in spite of WoW's decline in player base as homogenization set in as well as raid finder being added) most predominantly due to lack of interest in finding correlation, I can certainly argue that adding additional difficulties has had positive impacts. Terraria, as an example, added 'expert' difficulty to it's game and it was received in a positive light. The game still sits at overwhelmingly positive (whether this is a result of the game being good or not doesn't matter because a harder difficulty was added and therefore we know it did not have a negative impact on the game).

[Kamatsu]

Do you have a single fact to back that up? What game has had an increase in difficulty that resulted in a quantifiable player loss?

While I can't argue that games die because they become too easy (in spite of WoW's decline in player base as homogenization set in as well as raid finder being added) most predominantly due to lack of interest in finding correlation, I can certainly argue that adding additional difficulties has had positive impacts. Terraria, as an example, added 'expert' difficulty to it's game and it was received in a positive light. The game still sits at overwhelmingly positive (whether this is a result of the game being good or not doesn't matter because a harder difficulty was added and therefore we know it did not have a negative impact on the game).

Due to time constraints, I'm just going to address the above. Sorry I don't have time to address anything else.

Guild Wars 2. The base game was dead easy. While it did have mechanics that pushed for things like dodging, CC'ing mob's, etc... you didn't have to. You could get through the story missions, every zone apart from the last 3, every 'quest' just with auto-attack (skill #1) and a healing skill. It didn't require a lot of skill, and the last 3 zones which started out stupidly hard got nerfed hard due to massive complaints about how hard they were. Note - the vanila game was EXTREMELY solo friendly, you did NOT need other players for anything at all... so it was up to you whether you grouped up or not.

Then came along the expansion - Heart of Thorns. There had been a vocal minority on the official forums crying for all aspects of the game to be made harder, for more mechanics to be implemented, for mobs to have smarter AI and work together, etc (hmmm, this sounds eerily familiar...). ANet listened to these people and HoT was harder than the base game, it was no longer solo friendly, it was much more group orientated. The mobs were more densely packed and had lots of CC skills they used on players - so to navigate maps required a lot more active thinking, proper use of skills... or be part of a zerg of players. Not only that, they locked many hero points (points used to unlock class skills) behind group-only champion fights (ie imagine having to fight the super-tough boss fate mobs just to get relevant job skills in FFXIV). To progress through the story you had to complete certain repeating 'fates' on the map to level up a map/zone specific 'skill'... in the base game it was easy to solo these, in HoT they were extremely hard to solo... and generally only got done with groups of players.

Result? within the 1st 2 weeks after the launch of the expansion the official forums were filled with thread after thread, post after post, from many, many different people complaining about how hard the expansion was compared to the base game. How it was unfair that people who were used to casual solo gameplay were being asked to 'git gud' and play with groups or never progress. 2-3 weeks after the expansion launched the forums started filling up with "Where is everyone?" threads as people started complaining they couldn't complete events due to no one around, that maps were never filling with people, that they couldn't find ppl to help them with the group-only-champion fights either via map chat or party-finder.

And after NCSoft earnings report came out... it showed a massive 67% drop in earnings for Guild Wars 2 after the launch of the expansion. While you will always expect a drop in revenue after an expansion, but never a drop of that much. It was so bad that ANet made a public statement apologizing for making the expansion so hard, as well as nerfing the mobs on the maps so it was easier to navigate maps solo, the 'fates' were made to be able to be done solo instead of group-mostly, the group-only-champion fights were changed into veteran mobs that could be solo'ed, etc.

There's a game that came out with easy gameplay, easy playstyle (much easier than FFXIV btw), listened to those who clamored for harder content, more mechanics, etc... and found out the hard way that the majority of their player base was not at all interested in harder content, or harder mechanics. So when I see in the few MMO's I play the exact same calls on the official forums to make the game harder, more challenging, more difficult, more group-focused, more mechanics heavy, etc... I get peeved off as I've seen what it does to these games and don't want to see that happen here.

And BTW, Terriaria is an 'apples and oranges' comparison as it's a completely different genre of game, different style of gameplay and appeals to different gamers/mindset than an MMO. So the fact that ppl who play that game liked/applauded harder gameplay has no relevance to this game.

It would be like saying that because I seem to be advocating against harder overall content in FFXIV that I dislike hard/difficult games. The hundreds of hours I've played in Dark Souls 1, 2, 3, NioH, X-Com 1 & 2 on Classic/Impossible/Legendary Ironman, etc beg to disagree.

And btw, I'm not against difficulty as per such. I'm not against making mechanics in the game need to be paid attention more. I am against calls to make all content harder, to make story stuff more like the non-required (hard) dungeons, etc. I am against keeping old out-dated content "hard" just for the sake of some ppl's ego. Do I think there's a place for hard content in a game like FFXIV? Absolutely, just as there's a place for dead-easy content. Keep the story stuff easy, let the non-essential stuff be harder, and revamp older non-essintal dungeons to introduce more mechanics and such... and have MSQ solo-fights actually have toned-down mechanics from the later/upcoming dungeons/trials/raids so ppl have actually dome it prior to these fights.