Thread: Throwing the tome: 4.2 Summoner Feedback

It's the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts.

Even so, smn was a lot worse in arr/hw than it is now, it's definitely not perfect and pretty clunky to be honest, but I've seen darker days with this job, that's for certain.

Originally Posted by Kurando

Probably needs some tweaks though it's definitely not as bad as you make out.

Actually this ^^'

Originally Posted by Flana

Throwing it at a wall to be precise...
1.) Damage-over-Time effects are worthless.
2.) Pets are broken, stupid, and slow.
3.) Demi-Bahamut is also broken, stupid, and slow.
4.) Core mechanical systems compete against each other.

Right then. If you read all that, thank you for your time. I'd be interested in hearing additional thoughts and discussions.

Playing Smn since AAR going through all its phases I saw a lot of discussions about their design, mechanics, problems and ideas for adjustments... and like Adventica6 said there were times smn was even less enjoyable especially at release and first endgame content without any burst and enkindle on a 3 mins cd as your "big boom" atk... aside of your DoT opinion nothing you have said actually brings something now to the table smns haven't discussed before...

1.) Damage-over-Time effects are worthless.
One of the most popular discussions back in the days was a better separation between smn and sch, especially after se claimed they won't stick to base cls for jobs in the future. so one of them was meant to lose the "dot cls" image and since smn already had dps problems in regards of endgame content it was obvious they would bring more burst related skills with upcoming patches (HW and ongoing). It might appear a bit weird that f.e Brds seem to handle their dots better than smn atm but thats just a feeling because we were used to be based on dots, dot-interactions & dot-buffs. Loosings skills like M2/shadowsflare spam, pot nerfs of remaining dots and less interactions like the missing con seem negativ at first but actually its just the result of leaving the "dot-cls" image moving to a more burst/spike dmg image – something the smn com asked for a long time. They are just a common part of your toolkit now like in every other dds-toolkit as well. Days of A+ DoTs might be over but thats far away from being worthless.

2.) Pets are broken, stupid, and slow.
nothing new - actually the oldest topic ever since...

3.) Demi-Bahamut is also broken, stupid, and slow.
nothing new as well, those were the complains since day 1. (its not a perfect argument but Bahamuts 100y range becomes handy if you are already out of range of your own skills at least)

4.) Core mechanical systems compete against each other.
Also the aetherlockout in trance is just a point of view - while you miss the option to refresh, im f.e are more happy about loosing the timer of dwt and the oppertunity to hold trance for a while not being forced to use it the next 13 sec without loosing it at all. There were 100+1 ideas how they could improve core mechanics but less to none are based the demand to reopen aether for trance. Its just another mechanic we were used to like the focus of dots tho... it feels unusual but in the end it isnt worse just different than before.

Good thing about smn tho... it never gets boring cause it always change its game-mechanic with every major update, I like that somehow but that could be just me :3

actually u don't know how dots work or how powerful dots on bossfights are do u? no serious raider would recommend to delete ANY kind of dot skills from their cls... smn was WAY to overpowered with 4.1 got a serious nerf with 4.2 and is STILL one of the strongest caster ingame cause of dot-options (if you count egi autoatk as dot u still have 3 of them) which are 80% instant and u just have to hardcast them just every 2 mins.

all problems you are talking about are actually advantages smn still have if we talk about dots in generell... also you started your topic with "This has nothing to do with damage" but your first argument is comparing numbers... so whats the real deal in hating dots on smn? I just can't understand why someone want to delete the only source of dmg you have for downtimes or when boss/mob got untargetable...

Originally Posted by Flana

Preface:
This has nothing to do with damage. Summoner could be the #1 dps by twice as much as #2 or the #19 dps overall and I would still be writing this post. The numbers are mostly irrelevant, this job is broken on a fundamental level and is in a drastic need of some changes. Nothing about this job functions in a cohesive way.

At least you're not one of the "MY CLASS HAS TO BE THE MOST POWERFUL OR ELSE IT'S USELESS" people that usually flock the forums. But, every class has its own sets of mechanics and abilities clashing with each other. Why does BLM's Fire IV cast so long for a spell that doesn't refresh Astral Fire? Why doesn't Sheltron have an Off-Tank counterpart for Sword Oath? Why does Red Mage punish players who accidentally go a bit too far off balance with black and white spells?

Originally Posted by Flana

1.) Damage-over-Time effects are worthless.

DoTs have become so deemphasized since Stormblood they might as well not even exist. With the loss of Contagion, nothing in your boss kit interacts with any of your debuffs. With the change of Fester to always give Dreadwyrm Aether, they don't even matter to your basic gameplay rotation anymore. You could literally drop DoTs and go through your entire Trance and Bahamut rotation, unimpeded. It is nothing but invisible damage now.

You say that, but Bio 3 and Miasma 3 are about a 3rd of SMN's DPS, combined. And if you're not using Fester with your DoTs, you're losing out on a whopping 300 potency per cast, so good job proving you have no idea how to play your own class.

Meanwhile, we didn't "lose" Contagion. It became a much more versatile ability by providing a flat DPS buff that interacts not only with your own spells (DoTs included) but also your healers' and other caster party members' spells. Yes, at the moment, most parties favor Ifrit at the moment for Radiant Shield, but there's a reason they reduced the cast time of Garuda and Ifrit to GCD.

Originally Posted by Flana

What other dps job can just drop one of the supposed "Core Mechanics" and it actually not matter to how the job plays?

4.0 Black Mage would like to say "hi" and remind you that until 4.05, our 4.x rotation was a complete DPS loss versus our 3.x rotation, and our 3.x rotation became a DPS loss versus our 2.x rotation. Part of it had to do with the fact that we had a much easier chance to maintain our Thundercloud procs as well as random Firestarter procs after each Fire, so we may as well be hitting as hard as our Fire IV mechanics. If it weren't for the cast time boost, Fire IV would be removed off of our hotbars.

Oh yeah, and furthermore, Black Mage is still in a discussion on whether we should cut Thundercloud or Umbral Hearts (ESPECIALLY UMBRAL HEARTS) out of our rotation because of how little impact they bring. Thundercloud has a returned importance to our rotation due to the increased proc timer, but

Originally Posted by Flana

Even if you removed the debuffs from Tri-Disaster, it wouldn't affect how you cast the ogcd. You'd still use it in the same place in your rotation, every time. That's how utterly meaningless the DoTs have become.

It would be objectively weaker. Like, 1000 total potency over 30s weaker. There'd be practically no point to the mere 20 bonus potency to Ruin spells. You basically butchered an ability by removing two of its core mechanics, and it'd still be necessary because of the 20 potency for Ruin III and II/IV.

And mind you, BLM is the class that I'm most familiar with in this regard. I'm pretty sure there's classes who COULD ignore some of their mechanics if they really wanted to (but still a bad idea to do so because it'd remove DPS).

Originally Posted by Flana

At least Bane still spreads them, but that isn't even a Summoner spell. Trash pulls take so little time to go through I barely ever find myself needing to Bane more than once a pull anyways.

Depends on the dungeon, depends on the level. At the very least, it'd shred those pulls quicker.

Originally Posted by Flana

Why do these even still exist if you aren't going to do anything with them?

Bio and Miasma are still part of the rotation, just not in the manual casting form due to Tri-Disaster's much more useful form. I suppose they're just there so they can be upgraded for Tri-Disaster.

Originally Posted by Flana

2.) Pets are broken, stupid, and slow.

This is specifically dealing with the Egis. Don't worry, I have completely different reasons for hating the Demi pet, and we'll get to that in a bit.

Pet AI remains braindead and foolish for no real reason. Why do my pets stop attacking when their target dies until I command them to attack or actively attack another target when I'm still engaged with 10 other enemies? What Summoner in-universe would be so braindead they wouldn't tell their summon "Attack my enemies until otherwise instructed" instead of just "Attack that one and nothing else until I say otherwise."

Because coding is likely a nightmare, and SE refuses to give the FFXIV team money.

Originally Posted by Flana

Why can Enkindle still fail and not cast under certain circumstances? Why doesn't my pet just continue to cast Enkindle until it actually goes off?

Because normal spells can still fail and not cast under certain circumstances.

Originally Posted by Flana

Speaking of Enkindle's casting, why is Devotion something the pet has to actually cast after I have to cast Aetherpact? Doing so introduces lag that no one (besides Scholar) has to deal with. Precise timing of the buff is frustrating to deal with because the Egi can decide they'd rather use another gcd first. Or just not cast it immediately when standing still.

Because players complained about a lack of player interaction. Also programming flaws.

Originally Posted by Flana

With the loss of Contagion, no pet has any direct interaction with your "Core Themes." They don't interact with themselves, they don't interact with demi pets, and they don't interact with your dots anymore. There is a huge potential here that's not being served at all. There is no depth to them.

What are you even talking about. Contagion is still part of our kit, it's a more useful and applicable Magic Vulnerability Debuff that actually helps the party as much as they help our own damage. You can even quickswitch between Ifrit and Garuda to ensure full coverage of buffs, Radiant Shield for physical vulnerability and Contagion for magic vulnerability.

Again, it sounds like you understand literally nothing about your own job.

Originally Posted by Flana

3.) Demi-Bahamut is also broken, stupid, and slow.

I can not stand this lump of awful being such a core part of the job. Nothing about it is interesting.

Just going by the theme of it, why is my ultimate summon so stupid it has to have it's hand held to attack at all? Why does it have so much performance anxiety it won't cast Akh Morn unless it's within a few feet of me half the time?

Why does it have a one-hundred yard range and still need to be following me at all time?

...Honestly, that is one of the best points you've made so far.

Originally Posted by Flana

Why does Addle still proc an extra attack, forcing me to either waste a cooldown for damage, or lower my damage to provide a valuable group buff?

Because Addle targets an enemy target, and it doesn't seem to bother the Dev team that this interaction exists. In addition, Addle generally doesn't get much use outside of SMN and several situational boss fights that somehow DO use magical attacks as their primary attack.

Originally Posted by Flana

Why is it by forcing this thing to attack, all he can do is a weak and visually bland auto-attack? Why doesn't it actually interact with what I'm doing? Everything you do results in the same action.

Because I think they were trying to experiment with different ways of making pets attack without being absolutely braindead. Again, as you pointed out earlier:

Why do my pets stop attacking when their target dies until I command them to attack or actively attack another target when I'm still engaged with 10 other enemies?

They might not be able to fix the shoddy code of the original pets, so they're experimenting with ways to circumvent the flaws.

Originally Posted by Flana

This is going into my next point as well, but why does this pet's existence screw over my other pets at random points in the fight? There is a very tight window for Rouse to be used without wasting any of the buff, because your pet dies when demi-bahamut spawns. If an intermission happens and these desync, well tough luck. Your pets hate each other and your stuck wasting time playing favorites while the other sulks. This also happens with Enkindle, since you can effectively 'waste' time on it if it cycles while demi-bahamut is out. Not only do your two pet types have zero interaction, they actively compete against each other.

Then you don't summon Demi Bahamut when Rouse is up. It's that simple. It's supposed to be one of those "Be careful with what you're doing" downsides that is supposed to come up when you're using mechanics, see: losing Foul as a BLM for not upholding UI or AF.

Originally Posted by Flana

4.) Core mechanical systems compete against each other.

This has been a continual problem since Stormblood launched and there hasn't been any indication of it being fixed. On a basic level, most of your mechanics block each other.

Aetherflow is the skill by which your entire rotation functions. You need to go through all 3 relatively fast in order to get to Dreadwyrm. It's unfortunate then that Dreadwyrm completely deadwalls Aetherflow. You can not use Aetherflow (without wasting it) prior to expending all your dreadwyrm aether in Trance.

This is at its dumbest when you start a fight, as the optimal use of Trance is to immediately go into it and then waste the vast majority of your buff by throwing it away on a quick Deathflare. You have to so Aetherflow can be used faster.[/QUOTE]

OKAY BUT WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT. IT WOULD BE A DPS LOSS TO NOT MAKE USE OF YOUR (assuming you use Tri-Disaster as you ought to, since you ALWAYS refresh Tri-Disaster with DWT (and by the way, the combined 100 potency per 3s that you seem to think is practically invisible turns into a 110 potency per 3s that DOES NOT RUN OUT EVEN WHEN YOU LOSE DWT, GIVING YOU A 1100 TOTAL POTENCY) MOBILE 140 RUIN IIIS/220 RUIN IVS AT THE SAME TIME THAT YOU HAVE A WHOPPING 10% DAMAGE INCREASE!? Yes, I know you're not using your Aetherflow abilities here anymore due to the mechanics, but that's the trade you get for having always confirmed, never lost Aethertrail Attunement.

Originally Posted by Flana

You need to Dreadwyrm Trance twice to summon Demi-Bahamut. Optimally you'll wait on Aetherflow so you can force the whimp to auto an extra three times, but then you're stuck waiting on demi-bahamut to get bored and leave. You're completely blocked off from Trance, even though you meet the conditions and at any other time would want to enter it asap to get the bonus damage.

Why do all of these mechanics fight each other? Why are you constantly walled in this job and stuck waiting to do what you need to do. Why is downtime punishing down the road because it broke your juggling act of all these walls?

Sounds like you never played BLM. ...also, if Bahamut is just sitting there and being bored, it sounds like you're not doing enough casting.

Originally Posted by Flana

Why does everything in this job feel tacked on and extremely shallow?

That's honestly subjective and on you, to be perfectly honest.

Originally Posted by Flana

So what would I change?

Opinions are a dime a dozen, but I feel like I should at least offer up some suggestions in addition to complaining non-stop about the job. Some of these are a combination of things, and obviously not all of them would work. These are just my thoughts after playing.

And you know what? Good on you! Unlike the vast majority of other players on this forum, you actually came out with changes that don't just border on "Make my class OP because I don't wanna feel sad playing it!" ...which BLM players tend to suffer from the most on the forum.

Originally Posted by Flana

Damage over Time:

Change 1:

Reintegrate kit cohesion in some way that makes sense, starting with DoTs. Make Wyrmwave extend the duration of DoTs on the target by one second or whatever, or retool one of the pets current abilities to have a bonus effect if it strikes a target infected by your diseases. Give it something to tie the job together.

A pretty good suggestion, no arguments here.

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 2:

Alternatively if you aren't going to do anything with it in the first place, just get rid of them altogether and work some of that invisible power back into the other parts of the kit. I liked DoTs back in Heavensward, but this halfsies approach in Stormblood is just infuriating.

You'd get a really awkward mix of Black Mage and Red Mage, and every class needs some kind of identity.

Originally Posted by Flana

Pets:

Change 1:

Remove the need for a pet to "cast" a spell after I tell it to. Instead just have the spell cast by the Summoner and the origin point be the summon. So for example, Devotion is a spell the Summoner casts and radiates from the pet instantly. The pet never has to do anything.

Might be unfortunately impossible due to programming. This isn't easy, after all.

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 2:

Update pet ai to immediately overwrite its current commands with a master's command once ordered. There should never be a time where my pet debates if it wants to Enkindle or cast another Windblade real quick.

If they could, I think they would.

Change 3:

This is a lot more personal, but I would like to see more master/pet interaction in the Summoner kit. The change to Ruin IV was fantastic for that, and I would like to see something on the reverse end where my action can provide a benefit to the pet. Something like a Ruin or DoT crit reducing the cooldown of an ability by a set amount, or a damage buff on their next "main" spell.[/QUOTE]

Also fair, I could see a semi return to Old Contagion in this change, with each attack having a chance of increasing the duration of Bio III, Miasma III and maybe even Ruination.

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 4:

Related to change 2, remove the effect of Contagion and Radiant Shield from the pet if they can not be made to instantly obey the master. Stick the effect on Aetherpact or give the Summoner a new skill (especially notice change 1 if you do) to do it based on what type of pet you have out. Fighting your pet to get important debuffs out at a specific time is not fun.

Then what would they replace those slots with?

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 4.5:

Give titan-egi something to match the dps pets, if even just for soloing stuff. I don't know, a damage shield on the caster? Crappy mixed vuln? The guy should get something, he has a hard life getting summoned just to be punched in the face.

Also fair.

Originally Posted by Flana

Demi-pets:

Change 1:

Remove it, this things existence has introduced a horrific number of problems to the jobs overall flow and siphoned a large amount of power away from the kit just so the player can spawn an overly attached reskin to vaguely air-hump in the direction of a boss. I do not feel this spell has anything of substance to the job.

Seems a bit pointless to remove an ability that players have suggested for a long time after using it. Considering the only abilities that have been removed are truly useless abilities that are literally never casted (or decent abilities that have been split into two halves and given to logical counterparts in Cross Role). A core ability like this would certainly need a rework, but not outright removal.

[QUOTE=Flana;4589591]
Change 1.5:

Alternatively, retool Summon Bahamut into a Dreadwyrm Trance finisher that summons a pet to launch one high damage attack at the current enemy. Have it cost aether or just have a large cooldown, whatever is fine. Let him cast Megaflare or something, I don't know. If it must remain then-

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 2:

Leave bahamut stationary once summoned. The thing has a 100-yard range it does not need to follow me everywhere. It being stuck in one place should also make it more responsive to Enkindle Bahamut.

The best thing you've suggested.

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 3:

This one is another hyper-personal one, but I would rather see Enkindle Bahamut removed and replaced by having Bahamut interacting with Aetherflow abilities instead. If I Fester or Energy Drain, have it Ahk Morn (make it single target or something). If I Painflare or Bane, let it Flarebreath or something. Remove or reduce the potency on Wyrmwave if you have to. Just do something to tie the job together.

...actually, that would be neat as well, though I'd honestly just say replace the "pet control" and have it replaced by interactions with your Aetherflow abilities or "Enkindles".

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 4:

Speaking of Wyrmwave, stop letting Addle trigger a Wyrmwave. That is beyond ridiculous.

Might not be possible, since it activates by using spells/abilities on enemies. It'd mean losing access to Wyrmwave whilst using Aetherflow abilities.

Originally Posted by Flana

Change 5:

Let bahamut be affected by Rouse at a weaker level/different effect. Having the rotation broken by a fight intermission and then just sitting on Rouse for 20+ seconds because I have to bahamut phase feels awful.

Kinda fair, actually.

Originally Posted by Flana

Mechanical Flow:

Change 1:

Stop blocking Aetherflow in Dreadwyrm Trance. Block me from using Fester, Bane, ED, and Painflare if you have to, I do not care. But blocking Aetherflow has created the dumbest possible rotation where you are required to waste the first Trance of a fight just so you can get the cooldown going. There is nothing fun about that.

...But, it's a DPS loss to waste Dreadwyrm Trance. And now that I think about it, I think it might very well be a bit of a balancing factor to keep SMN from being more powerful than any other DPS class (and trust me, they've already been there anyway). As a side note, it really doesn't feel all that different versus HW's counterpart, other than the fact you can no longer do a Trance+Flow opener.

Some of the points are a bit more fair than others, but you have your opinions, and I have mine. I'd say SMN would do well to replace full fledged pet controls to instead have "stance pets" and stance dancing ala Bard. Perhaps tie Demi-Bahamut's summoning to the Egis, so you'd need to summon Ifrit, Garuda and Titan to summon Demi-Bahamut.