TBN vs DA (analysis and discussion)

[whiskeybravo]

The thing is, DRK isn't really in a position to forego TBN. I suppose as an OT you wouldn't need to use it, certainly not as often, but as a MT they don't have many mitigation options without it. In the grand scheme I don't see an issue with having a cost/benefit like this, WAR is similar with IB - good mitigation boost but comes with a dps loss. Obviously War's kit without IB is better than Drk's kit without TBN, a separate issue altogether, but in general I think trading dps for mitigation makes some sense.

Maybe Bloodspiller should just be off the GCD? Though that doesn't exactly help the problem of excessive dual-weaving.

[Kabooa]

I've been thinking just removing the MP / Blood from TBN and just let it be a defensive cooldown. It's not like paladins really give up much for using Shelltron, and many have highlighted this as primarily because the Oath gauge only powers a subset of abilities, and is not really a universal resource in the way MP is.

Remove the cost and blood conversion, give it a longer cooldown, and make the shield somewhat stronger. Something like 30% / 30 seconds. A longer cooldown discourages using it for everything, and a stronger shield makes it more likely to be impactful as a standalone cooldown.

We can take it a step further and empower it under Blood Weapon and Blood Price

TBN Breaks under Blood Price: Gain 50 Blood.
TBN Breaks under Blood Weapon: Heal for X Health.

[Aana]

The thing is, DRK isn't really in a position to forego TBN. I suppose as an OT you wouldn't need to use it, certainly not as often, but as a MT they don't have many mitigation options without it. In the grand scheme I don't see an issue with having a cost/benefit like this, WAR is similar with IB - good mitigation boost but comes with a dps loss. Obviously War's kit without IB is better than Drk's kit without TBN, a separate issue altogether, but in general I think trading dps for mitigation makes some sense.

Maybe Bloodspiller should just be off the GCD? Though that doesn't exactly help the problem of excessive dual-weaving.

The question is never really 'should I use TBN at all?'. As you pointed out. Drk as a MT cant really afford to just not use it ever. The question is aimed at 'should I use it as often as reasonably possible if I will get the full mitigation value (pop the shield, get the refund?'

The latter gets into using it on other people, when youre the OT, spamming it to mitigate auto's if theres no tank buster in the next 15 sec, etc.

Personally, I think people have got the DPS>All mentality stuck in their minds far to rigidly. The DPS benefit from avoiding TBN except when absolutely necessary is fractions of a % of a loss on average, and at times, fractions of a % gain. The VAST majority of players are not playing optimally enough to be able to leverage only the gains and dodge the losses. Its unrealistic for the avg drk to know if this specific use is a gain or a loss at that moment in this specific fight/situation.

This sidesteps the real issue anyway. All of the chatter about TBN as a gain or a loss is really just splitting hairs. The actual impact it has in-game on your DPS is not significant enough to warrant the obsession with this specific topic. No matter what you do, it will have virtually no impact on your game. So in that light, you are just throwing away large, consistent shields because of an unhealthy obsession with a fractions of a % of damage. Yes. Plds costs no damage. But Drks is so wishy washy in the grey area that FUNCTIONALLY you can treat it as if it also costs no damage. People get stuck on the 'principle of the matter' that Plds costs no damage instead of the practical truth that the damage loss is to small to actually matter.

[Chrono_Rising]

The question is never really 'should I use TBN at all?'

Personally, I think people have got the DPS>All mentality stuck in their minds far to rigidly. The DPS benefit from avoiding TBN except when absolutely necessary is fractions of a % of a loss on average, and at times, fractions of a % gain. The VAST majority of players are not playing optimally enough to be able to leverage only the gains and dodge the losses. Its unrealistic for the avg drk to know if this specific use is a gain or a loss at that moment in this specific fight/situation.

This sidesteps the real issue anyway. All of the chatter about TBN as a gain or a loss is really just splitting hairs.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing against as I don't see anyone suggesting to not use it at all. Honestly, I thought this post was fairly balanced and brought up an apparently needed conversation given the recent false claims in another thread claiming that TBN greatly out weighs the 2400 mana in terms of DPS.

My major problem. Paladin is now blocking for 27% with sheltron, and I've been told when I get my diamond shield I can expect 28% mitigation from blocking. This means that Sheltron is the superior mitigation for anything hitting above about 71% of your maximum HP. On its own that isn't so bad, the issue is that sheltron performs so much better in the range of damage you would want to use TBN on AND functions as a damage increase by procing shield swipe.

By the end of the expac I'm almost positive we are going to have sheltron in the 30% range with essentially a 22 second cooldown which you can use for 100 oGCD potency. This is what people are comparing TBN to. To me this is just more of the same Dark is closer to warrior for mitigation and paladin for dps. It is the worst of both worlds.

[Mycow8me]

There was never an argument as to whether or not it should be used. Why are you so annoyed over a topic that wasn't even in debate.

The topic was whether or not it was a dps loss, gain, or break even, apparently there are still different beliefs floating around about it. I even explicitly stated that most people probably don't even worry about it due to how minor of a loss it is on the first post. Chill your self. Its a neat topic to talk about since there are still different beliefs so far into its inception.

If your are going to use it, there's no harm in knowing more about how it affects your DPS. Chances are you could save a healer gcd with it depending how much HP you got left after a buster which ironically could be a dps gain if the healer is smart enough not to blow a cure on a tank that is only missing about 20-15% HP after a buster.

The average drk probably doesn't even read this forum but we still post stuff here anyways.

Edit: I copied this over from a word document and edited it when I brought it over to the forums. Apparenly I clipped out the part where I said its probably not worth worrying about whether or not its a loss or gain when I removed nearly a whole paragraph due to convolution and TL;DR. I'll update first post again.

[Aana]

There are already dozens of analysis on the DPS gain/loss. If the only purpose was to remind the world (yet again), why not just link any of the dozens of copies of the exact same topic? Or link it in the threads that people are questioning the DPS values of TBN? Why reinvent the wheel and re-analyze what has been done dozens and dozens of times between here, reddit, in multiple languages. Theres no need to continuously re-analyze the same factoid in the same forum every 2 weeks. It implies theres something new on the pulpy remains.

[Mycow8me]

There are already dozens of analysis on the DPS gain/loss. If the only purpose was to remind the world (yet again), why not just link any of the dozens of copies of the exact same topic? Or link it in the threads that people are questioning the DPS values of TBN? Why reinvent the wheel and re-analyze what has been done dozens and dozens of times between here, reddit, in multiple languages. Theres no need to continuously re-analyze the same factoid in the same forum every 2 weeks. It implies theres something new on the pulpy remains.

Sigh, for the same reason we talk about the same things at the same times everywhere else. Aana its fair to say we don't get along but seriously. I myself have not looked anywhere else for these analysis's and I'm sure there are others. Sorry me wanting to post my own analysis and thoughts has caused you so much grief.

[whiskeybravo]

I kinda agree with both sentiments. It has been talked about a lot, but I think the only area that hasn't really been discussed is how to apply this information in the actual encounters. Like we established, DRK doesn't have much choice but to use TBN for mitigation - and we know that sometimes it's a loss and sometimes it's a gain. So all that's left is extrapolating that out to the actual fights. Such as "Using TBN x times before the Doom Train phases allows you to get x amount of DA attacks.." or conversely "costs you x amount of DA attacks", etc. Stuff along those lines. A lot has already been discussed in general terms, so the only place to go with it is narrowing down to in-game situations. Dirty work IMO lol

[Chrono_Rising]

There are already dozens of analysis on the DPS gain/loss. If the only purpose was to remind the world (yet again), why not just link any of the dozens of copies of the exact same topic? Or link it in the threads that people are questioning the DPS values of TBN? Why reinvent the wheel and re-analyze what has been done dozens and dozens of times between here, reddit, in multiple languages. Theres no need to continuously re-analyze the same factoid in the same forum every 2 weeks. It implies theres something new on the pulpy remains.

There is no implication. We don’t need to be TBN thought police telling people what they can and cannot post. We don’t have the budget for our own thought police.

[Mahrze]

There are already dozens of analysis on the DPS gain/loss. If the only purpose was to remind the world (yet again), why not just link any of the dozens of copies of the exact same topic? Or link it in the threads that people are questioning the DPS values of TBN? Why reinvent the wheel and re-analyze what has been done dozens and dozens of times between here, reddit, in multiple languages. Theres no need to continuously re-analyze the same factoid in the same forum every 2 weeks. It implies theres something new on the pulpy remains.

While I agree that beating the dead horse can be tiresome. It doesn't imply anything, the implication comes from an assumption, and that is on the reader. Expecting everyone to read the info form the same venues is naive at best. If this is a topic you feel is dead and tired and it merits no more input, all you have to do is avoid it.