TBN vs DA (analysis and discussion)

[Mycow8me]

From my own analysis on the 2. TBN could be a marginal dps gain or marginal dps loss. There is no complete break even scenario.

It depends really. The simplest way to look at it would be that for every TBN you use, your adding a bloodspiller into your maximum GCD count before boss dies but that GCD count is finite so you have to remove the last combo gcd you would have otherwise used for each bloodspiller added this way.
Dark arts + souleater is 440 potency
Dark arts + syphon strike is 390 potency but every second syphon strike generates another instant 140 potency, You could say syphon strike actually does 320 potency.
Hard slash is only 150 potency.

Say you used TBN and clipped a souleater off your maximum gcd count at the end of a fight. You lost 140 potency from the dark arts and 300 potency from the souleater. it was 400 bloodspiller potency vs 440 souleater+dark arts potency.
Say you used TBN and clipped a odd numbered syphon strike off your maximum gcd count at the end of a fight. you lost 140 potency from dark arts and 250 potency from the syphon strike. It was 400 bloodspiller potency vs 390 syphon strike potency.
Say you used TBN and clipped a even numbered syphon strike off your maximum gcd count at the end of a fight. You lost 280 potency worth of dark arts and 250 potency from syphon strike. It was 400 vs 530 potency.
Say you used TBN and clipped a hard slash off your maximum gcd count at end of fight, you lost 140 potency from dark arts and 150 potency from hard slash. 400 blood spiller potency vs 290.

Wow TBN looks like its actually increasing my damage as long as hard slash is clipped and/or an odd amount of syphon strikes! How do you even plan something like that.

Say you used TBN 3 times in a fight just to gaurentee you clip a hard slash.
You clipped off 1 hard slash 1 syphon strike and 1 souleater for a total of 150+250+300=700 You clipped 3 dark arts for 420 and the total is 1120
3 TBN's translates to 3 bloodspillers so 1200 potency
You gained 80 potency, hey it works! But it gets tricky.

We cannot plan the end of a fight. Say you clipped the even numbered syphon strike. That last syphon strike you clipped would have given you another dark arts to use so in reality you clipped 4 dark arts and if you had been using dark arts instead of TBN you would have had another 140 on top of that 1120 putting you at 1260 potency vs 1200. It gets worse if you ended the fight on 40 blood and clipped a souleater, instead of clipping a syphon strike or a hardslash you could actually clip a dark arts and a natural bloodspiller for a bloodspiller and 40 blood remaining. The easiest way to show this would be like this: Say you ended your gcd count on a hardslash having not used 3 TBNS. If you had used 3 TBNs 3 backwards from a hardslash>Souleater>Syphon strike, this resulted from 3 TBN's used, those 3 combo gcds are lost in that order.
Here's a possible example: Say you used TBN 3 times.
Say you clipped 1 hardslash, 1 syphon strike, and 1 souleater, and 3 dark arts at the end of the fight you had half a dark arts MP and 40 blood. That last syphon strike would have given you another dark arts and that last souleater would have turned that last hardslash into a bloodspiller. So in reality you clipped 1 syphon strike, 1 souleater, 1 bloodspiller, and 4 dark arts. 250+300+400+(140*4)= 1510 potency vs 3 blood spillers at 1200 potency.

The reality: Is TBN always going to be a potency loss? No. If you can successfully clip only a hardslash off your total gcd count or an odd numbered syphon strike by all means go for it. If you end the fight clipping any number of souleaters that could otherwise result in a naturally generated bloodspiller with an extra GCD to use it, you've lost potency (At 2 TBNS and higher this becomes possible by simply clipping a souleater and a hardslash and 40 blood remaining at the end of a fight. Whether or not its worth worrying about if its a gain or a loss is up to the player. The loss or gain is miniscule in the grand scheme of a whole fight encounter potency wise but it doesn't hurt to know more about how the skill affects you.

I've thought about making a spreadsheet of Dark arts VS TBN use for gcd counts starting from 50 but it seems like more trouble than its worth. Maybe someone else can actually do an in depth look at dark arts VS TBN to find out exactly how and when each results in higher potency output but for now these are just general rules I've learned for myself. I'd rather assume TBN is a dps loss than risk it for a very marginal gain. If you are going to use TBN in a fight, I would recommend using it atleast 3 times to gaurentee clipping a hard slash at the very least. If it all goes smoothly and you clip a regular combo hardslash>syphonstrike>souleater without clipping an even numbered syphon or natural bloodspiller, you gain 80 potency. If you clipped the even syphon though you lost 60 potency. One could argue you need another GCD to be able to use that dark arts anyway but for the sake of that argument you could get 100 potency instantly from dark passenger instead of 140 from dark arts for a 20 potency loss instead of 80.

I basically revived this discussion because it seems like there are still different beliefs on this topic floating around as to whether or not TBN is a gain or a loss. Don't take anything I've put here as fact, merely my general thoughts and own analysis. While I don't hate how dark arts and TBN currently work, I'm not happy with them either.

[Nedkel]

It neither a gain not a loss, it has been designed that way if you use it and it breaks you dont lose any dps.

The TBN could be a dps gain if you take into account first 20-25 seconds of the fight, because you could use it 2 times in the row.
Spamming it will probably end up for you as a loss, but thats in a case of spamming it every CD for 60 seconds.

[Mycow8me]

It neither a gain not a loss, it has been designed that way if you use it and it breaks you dont lose any dps.

The TBN could be a dps gain if you take into account first 20-25 seconds of the fight, because you could use it 2 times in the row.
Spamming it will probably end up for you as a loss, but thats in a case of spamming it every CD for 60 seconds.

No, you can lose or gain dps depending on what the bloodspiller u gained replaces. This is explained at the top.

[Kabooa]

No, you can lose or gain dps depending on what the bloodspiller u gained replaces. This is explained at the top.

Doesn't that only matter if you hit an invulnerability phase before a Soul Eater combo line finishes? I mean what level of GCD count are you doing ahead of time to think "If I bloodspiller now, 9 minutes down the line I lose out on Souleater"

>_>

[Mycow8me]

Doesn't that only matter if you hit an invulnerability phase before a Soul Eater combo line finishes? I mean what level of GCD count are you doing ahead of time to think "If I bloodspiller now, 9 minutes down the line I lose out on Souleater"

>_>

Invulnerability phases will only interrupt combo rotations. If for some reason you used a bloodspiller generated by a TBN and that caused you to not be able to finish a souleater combo before invuln then yes you took a dps loss because you went from syphon strike to hardslash again when boss is vulnerable again, and you lost the 10 blood souleater would have generated possibly losing a natural bloodspiller later on. Hell you took a dps loss if you couldn't get off that last syphon strike probably but you won't know unless you get to the end and find out that last strike would have been an even numbered one causing you to gain a dark arts. However the good thing about invulns is you know when they are going to happen and you can hold onto the 50 blood that TBN gave you and still finish off the combo rotation if your careful and bloodspiller when boss becomes available again. When the boss is dieing your GCDs are coming to an end though, no chance to use blood or MP again after.

That's why I was saying its impossible to say whether or not TBN is a dps increase or loss until you get to the end and find out how many you have used and what you clipped out of your total GCD count for the fight. To avoid the situation all together you can just assume its a loss and avoid TBN if possible. Most people are of the mind I'm guess that the loss or gain is for the most part pointless to worry about due to how small it is. If TBN saves your life, obviously its a gain. If TBN fails to trigger the 50 blood obviously its a loss. Those are the only 2 absolutes that I'm aware of currently.

[Shinkyo]

Doesn't that only matter if you hit an invulnerability phase before a Soul Eater combo line finishes? I mean what level of GCD count are you doing ahead of time to think "If I bloodspiller now, 9 minutes down the line I lose out on Souleater"
>_>

It also depend when you use/get that Bloodspiller. If it’s during a rDPS buff (e.g. Trick attack), you’re more likely to make TBN a small DPS gain.
But overall, TBN is neutral. It’s sometimes a gain, sometimes a loss and you have little control over the certainty of that outcome.
However, TBN always carries the risk of mistiming it (less likely in 4.2) or capping blood, whereas DA is always consistent.

[Daniel_Fury]

If you break TBN 15 times in the fight, you have generated enough bloodspiller Gcds to lose a blood spiller generated from 5 soul eater combos. At this point it is definitely a loss.

A naturally generated bloodspiller from soul eater is a much higher gain. Even if you assume TBN "breaks even" in dps, after 15 TBN you definitely have lost a good chunk of potency and it is definitely marked as a loss.

[Mycow8me]

If you break TBN 15 times in the fight, you have generated enough bloodspiller Gcds to lose a blood spiller generated from 5 soul eater combos. At this point it is definitely a loss.

A naturally generated bloodspiller from soul eater is a much higher gain. Even if you assume TBN "breaks even" in dps, after 15 TBN you definitely have lost a good chunk of potency and it is definitely marked as a loss.

Yep. Chances are you don't need to go as high as 15 though, thats if you ended a fight at 0 blood which is a low chance. If you end a fight with say 30 blood and use TBN 6 times you've canceled 2 souleaters and lost a natural bloodspiller. Same scenario. If you ended a fight at 40 blood and used TBN 3 times chances are you lost a natural bloodspiller as well.

[Chrono_Rising]

Yep. Chances are you don't need to go as high as 15 though, thats if you ended a fight at 0 blood which is a low chance. If you end a fight with say 30 blood and use TBN 6 times you've canceled 2 souleaters and lost a natural bloodspiller. Same scenario. If you ended a fight at 40 blood and used TBN 3 times chances are you lost a natural bloodspiller as well.

I agree, worst case senario, if you use one TBN, lose one soul eater, and end with 40 blood it is a loss. The 15 TBNs is just the point at which you have definitely lost a bloodspiller.

[Aana]

Yep. Chances are you don't need to go as high as 15 though, thats if you ended a fight at 0 blood which is a low chance. If you end a fight with say 30 blood and use TBN 6 times you've canceled 2 souleaters and lost a natural bloodspiller. Same scenario. If you ended a fight at 40 blood and used TBN 3 times chances are you lost a natural bloodspiller as well.

What I find incredibly strange about all the math when this comes up is completely ignoring the purpose of using TBN in the 1st place. Oh no! after 15 TBN we lost a smidge of damage! Yet no one (arguing for or against its use) ever mentions that you also Benediction-ed yourself 1.5x through the fight doing that. Considering the utterly miniscule effect that TINY loss of damage (if you lose damage at all depending on all the factors involved) for the massive shielding provided, it mind boggling that this is still a 'debate'.

TBN is:
1. Sometimes a slight gain. (I cannot emphasize how small this gain actually is. It will not meaningfully affect a parse in the slightest)
2. Statistically a slight loss. (I cannot emphasize how small this loss actually is. It will not meaningfully affect a parse in the slightest)
3. Guranteed massive amounts of shielding if used regularly.

Points 1 and 2 are virtually nonexistent in the grand scheme of the hundreds of thousands of damage you put out in a fight and utterly meaning less in the MILLIONS of damage your team puts out. Friggin use the damn thing.