Dark Knight under review: Feedback to the Developers and Community Team

[TouchandFeel]

Dear Tracks,

I miss you and hope to see you again soon.

Love,
Train

[Arkfrost]

I don't get how this is toxic when parsers are there to help you improve and if you're in a static it shows who's not pulling their weight/needs to improve, it's a tool to use how you see fit. As for people being kicked it should happen if you're not preforming adequately why would I wanna bring a DPS who does 1-2k less than the other DPS and keeps dying to mechanics over and over? Not to mention you're free to use it in pugs to see the overall group play and see who's doing what.

Doing mechanics right + DPS uptime is the sign of a good player so that last part there of everyone looking at numbers vs people doing mechanics is just wrong, a good DPS will do mechanics and DPS at the same time.

How don't you get it, how this isn't toxic? I'll point it out more precise, so you understand it: People in WoW are kicking other people for not having a 90+ percentile in dps. Even if that person never dies to a single mechanic and executes every mechanic perfectly, but isn't using the optimal spreadsheet calculated rotation or simply not having a good dps uptime because they're focusing on doing mechanics correctly instead of being on the boss every millisecond, they are still getting kicked over someone who dies 2 times and fails his mechanics every second time killing other party members, but executes his rotation perfectly like on a spreadsheet so his dps is still at the tops, because people only look at the parser and are like "Oh, his dps is good, so he isn't doing anything wrong", while at the same time they're like "This person's dps is bad, so he must be bad." and Within the last few months that mentality is slowly rising more and more in ffxiv.

For example the healer from my static just recently got kicked from 2 o7s pf practice groups within one week only, just because she was only doing 900 dps, while the other healer was constantly failing his mechanics, wiping the whole raid, not raising the tanks, not healing appropriately, but his dps was dopey 1800, so he was allowed to stay.

Also, your "Doing mechanics right + DPS uptime"-Theory is just idealistic, but far away from reality. Maybe 5% of players do both. The reality is that most either do mechanics right, but have suboptimal rotations + dps uptime on the boss OR they have perfect rorations + dps uptime, but still fail mechanics, because they can't focus on both and only look at their parser every 5 seconds. And the latter is mostly the reason for raid fails. A group that has perfect mechanic execution, but only mediocre dps uptime will much more likely beat a raid than a group that has perfect dps uptime but only mediocre mechanic execution (since one mechanic in a savage raid can sometimes wipe a group if only 1 person fails at it).

[Reynhart]

That's all done by doing damage. If you don't die, you do more damage. If you don't mess up mechanics, you do more damage. Everything in this game is about doing more damage.

If you stay in every AoE to keep DPS uptime, you're doing more damage, but put a lot of unneeded pressure on the healers, that you will probably blame if you die.
And you're certainly not "better" than someone that does slightly less damage than you but perfectly dodges all avoidable damage.

[WhyAmIHere]

If you stay in every AoE to keep DPS uptime, you're doing more damage, but put a lot of unneeded pressure on the healers, that you will probably blame if you die.
And you're certainly not "better" than someone that does slightly less damage than you but perfectly dodges all avoidable damage.

I mean... if you're intentionally standing in the bad, you yourself are to blame if you die, since you'd be making the healer's job more difficult by your own actions. You can't DPS if you're dead.

[whiskeybravo]

A group that has perfect mechanic execution, but only mediocre dps uptime will much more likely beat a raid than a group that has perfect dps uptime but only mediocre mechanic execution

This is true to an extent, but averages out in the long run. As far as I can tell there are really 2 mindsets: 1) focusing on mechanics over dps while learning a fight and 2) aggressive dps adjusting as they learn their limitations in a particular encounter. (IE how long can I stand in this AoE for uptime before I need to move to avoid death). The latter are typically first to get clears, and in general they are setting the bar for everyone else. Draw you own conclusions.

Neither style is wrong, per se. It just depends on the group. As a raid leader I put up with my dps doing stupid things for uptime because I know they're trying to figure it out, while I personally try to steer everyone in the "lets just focus on mechanics" direction. It's OK to have a balance between the 2..

At the end of the day, I think you just need to be more open minded. Changing tanks dps because you think they should be more like a "tank" isn't actually going to impact the possibility of encountering toxic individuals. In fact adding more restrictions is likely to increase it. So just let people play they want to play, if it's not your style then find people with similar mindsets and try again. No one is stopping you.

[Parking]

Dear Tracks,

I miss you and hope to see you again soon.

Love,
Train

T h a t f o n t .

[Aniya_Estlihn]

-snip-

It should be and it is. Tanks stance is a learning tool, this game is not designed around your role it is designed around your job, period. You are a Dark Knight, Warrior, or Paladin before you are a tank. You need to be able to perform the functions required of you to hold your own outside of party content, that includes having the ability to do respectable damage, and unless you want that aspect removed from the game your mindset will never hold water and will always be a failed argument.


Furthermore it would drive away current tanks in end game, the tanks that strive to master their jobs, learn how to map their CDs while out of stance, that work tooth and nail to learn a fight inside and out to optimize how we're doing our job. Quite frankly, were there a push to what you're suggesting I'd quit playing. It's a dumb idea. We are not greedy, contrary, we are competent and know our jobs well—if that counts as greed then I don't want to be considerate (even if it isn't greedy at all.) On another note, you said you want to optimize your CD timing, yet ignore the fact that in tank stance you don't need to put as much thought into as you would outside of it. You're literally ignoring the design philosophy of this game and suggesting a much debated and hated idea in a thread that is completely unrelated to what you're saying.

You said a good tank is one who never dies, mitigates party damage, mitigates personal damage and looks at the boss to know what's coming, right? Funny that.

I do call outs for my group, I use reprisal on raid wide damage, I take tank busters outside of tank stance with appropriate cool-downs, I inform my group of what I am doing and ride my GCD all the while while trying to not miss a single Delirium + Blood Weapon window or Inner Release window, wll the while doing mechanics and contributing more to my group far beyond simply sitting in tank stance could ever hope to accomplish. I die occasionally, but it's Savage, everyone dies, everyone will taste the floor at least a couple dozen times in their raiding career and frankly there's nothing wrong with that.

Everything you're saying; as a self-proclaimed DRG main no less, implies that you actually understand very little of what it means to tank in this game.

My reasoning for this is that you're throwing out all these ideas and benefits of supposedly staying in tank stance when all that, and more, is possible without it. Simply put, your argument fell flat on it's face the moment you started listing what your "ideal" for a good tank is, as those things are expected whether you DPS or not, that's your role's responsibility, but as a job you are expected to contribute DPS in a party environment. This isn't the healer debate where healers deliberate whether they should DPS or just heal, tanks are literally in the boss' face the entire fight; save for swaps, and if all they're doing is rotating CDs and mitigating raid-wides they aren't performing to the best of their ability.

God willing, this will never change, as simply "tanking" with the constraints of your loose understanding allows for very little room for personal improvement and is basically shoving tanks into this small corner saying "This is what you do and if you try anything else you're going to get a swat on the hand." No offense, but if this is indicative of how you tank, you probably should just stick with Dragoon and let us handle things the way we have been. If you're not dying and your tank is doing their job; eg: not dying, taking busters, mitigating damage and contributing damage, you shouldn't care.

Raids are teamwork and individual skill doesn't matter. Group skill matters. If the group clears content faster, everyone got better and that's what the mentality in raiding should be: Progressing as a group.

Personal skill is what affects group synergy, a Dragoon doesn't just use Litany whenever they please, a Ninja doesn't hold the first trick attack far beyond the end of their opener, a healer doesn't wait to heal a tank after they take a buster, and so on. These are things you as a player learn about your job and are indicative of personal skill, these are things you should learn outside of a raid environment and have a direct impact on your group's ability to clear. It is progressing as a group, but to progress as a group you must also strive to improve as an individual player, that's not wanting to be an overpowered solo player, that's just striving to get better so that you aren't a burden on your team.

If this is your understanding of raiding then I don't think I can believe that you've ever stepped foot into Savage content; at least not with a dedicated group. As that mindset alone is detrimental and will affect group performance as it encourages under-performing. Realign your mindset, do research on the tanks, read guides and find out what is possible with them before ever making this argument again. Educate yourself and don't just make baseless assumptions based on what you feel should be done when you fail to understand why things are this way in the first place.

[Rollout]

I'm going to flesh out my idea from the other day a bit more.

I feel that each tank should have an identity of its own. To me, a Paladin is the standard defender; they're capable of protecting themselves but also prioritize protecting others. Warriors, meanwhile, are selfish, aiming to push themselves as long as possible and keep their foes focused on only them, so they can keep fighting, without regarding the safety of others.

So, where does that leave Dark Knight? To me, I don't see Dark Knight as actively protecting others, as in putting themselves in harm's way. They're more likely to butcher the thing that's attacking someone they're protecting, rather than shield them with their body. They will kill the attacker before it kills them or their charge. I feel that that should be the Dark Knight's identity. They should be the powerhouse tank, sacrificing ample mitigation and party utility in exchange for sheer, raw damage.

In order to do this, however, I feel that Dark Knights should have a LOT of its mechanics addressed, and I will begin with...

Dark Arts

Dark Arts is just... not fun. It's not interesting or entertaining to use this move every time you want to increase the power of some of your moves. Classes with lots of oGCDs are fun, but it's not fun when it's spamming the same thing over and over just to get extra potency on attacks. However, I do feel that Dark Knights empowering their abilities with Darkness is a signature of the class. So, I suggest that Dark Arts be removed and we instead focus on...

Darkside & Black Blood

Darkside, as it is, is something that you turn on and leave on. There's no reason NOT to use it, to the point where it's boring. And Black Blood is something that is introduced so late that it feels almost as if it were tacked on to the class so that it'd have a Job Gauge like the rest of the classes.

In order to make both of these more interesting, I suggest that Darkside be fueled by Black Blood, introducing the resource as soon as you get Darkside from your level 30 job quest. Activating Darkside will begin draining Black Blood and grant you the additional 20% damage increase. But, to reward you for managing your Blood, it will also have the effect of giving all of your weaponskills, spells and abilities the increased potency and additional effects as if they were under the effects of Dark Arts.

This way, Dark Knights learn to manage Black Blood for powerful burst phases that show off their sheer damage they are capable of inflicting to those that would harm others. But, since Black Blood is going to be used as a resource for fueling Darkside, I feel that other abilities need to be addressed...

Quietus and Bloodspiller

As these abilities use Black Blood currently, under my proposed new system, they would cause you to drain Black Blood very rapidly. I suggest, instead, that the Blood cost of these abilities be removed and their usages shifted.

Quietus, I feel, should have its potency increased to make it comparable to Warrior's Decimate. As MP management would be less of an issue for Dark Knights with the focus being on Black Blood, the MP gained can be removed. But in order to prevent it from being totally unbalanced, I suggest it be turned into an oGCD and given a moderate cooldown, so it cannot be spammed.

Bloodspiller, meanwhile, I feel should be the Dark Knight's endgame identity. It is an extremely powerful attack and one that should be used frequently to dole out justice to those that would harm those weaker than themselves. I suggest that it be turned into a weaponskill combo that branches off Syphon Strike, in contrast to Soul Eater. Allow it to maintain its high damage and I would even suggest it outright ignore the damage penalty from Grit. The trade off would then be between using Souleater to generate Black Blood for your burst phases or use Bloodspiller to dish out damage.

The changes might seem overpowered, but I feel that it would help separate Dark Knights from Paladins and Warriors. But, there are other abilities that interact with Black Blood that I feel should also be tweaked.

Blood Weapon, Blood Price and Delirium

Due to the introduction of Black Blood as soon as you get Darkside, I feel that Blood Weapon and Blood Price should generate Black Blood immediately. However, in order to prevent Blood Weapon from being too powerful from the start, I feel that the amount of Black Blood you generate should be reduced from three Blood per hit, to one Blood per hit. Blood Price should remain the same, as it can be used to generate your Blood during a dungeon which you can then use for your burst phase at the start of the next boss fight.

But, in order to keep both of these abilities relevant at the end game, I suggest that the level 66 trait, Enhanced Black Blood, instead be turned into Enhanced Blood Weapon & Blood Price.
This trait would restore the Black Blood generated from Blood Weapon from one to three. While Blood Price will carry the effect of reducing the cooldown on Quietus every time you are struck,
perhaps with a brief cooldown on how frequently this can happen to prevent Quietus from being too powerful.

Delirium, meanwhile, I feel is a perfectly fine ability, but due to the fact that Black Blood is introduced alongside Darkside, I suggest that you learn this ability much sooner. Since Dark Arts would be removed under my proposed system, I feel that it should take the place of your reward for your level 45 quest. And since you'll be wanting to use Delirium to help you generate Black Blood for your burst phases, I suggest removing the cost.

Since you're getting Delirium as soon as you hit level 45, rather than 62, I suggest that you gain a trait at level 62 that lets Delirium grant you Black Blood, so that it can be used early in a boss fight to reach your burst phase sooner.

Now, all of these tweaks and changes would, hopefully, result in a massive increase in damage output from Dark Knights, which is my intention with these suggestions. However, as I believe that Dark Knights should be more focused on butchering their foes, rather than defending themselves or others from them, I feel that their defensive capabilities should be... balanced.

Grit

As it stands, Grit is just a worse Shield Oath. It's simply a 20% damage mitigation and 20% damage dealt penalty. To set it apart from Shield Oath, and in order to keep with the theme of Dark Knight's being the powerhouse and slaughterers, I suggest that Dark Knights have their damage resistance and damage dealt penalty on Grit reduced to 10%, while also giving it an additional effect of having a chance of dealing a low potency attack to enemies when they are struck.

This would make Dark Knights squishier than the other tanks, but hardiness shouldn't be their identity;
that belongs to Warriors. Rather than being able to survive incredible amounts of punishment,
Dark Knights should be focused on killing everything before they can take that much damage.

I don't doubt that these suggestions might be incredibly unbalanced. And they could very well be a damage nerf, rather than gain, like I think it is. But I imagine a seasoned team of developers would be able to balance it much better. My main intention with these suggestions is to give Dark Knight an identity that really sets it apart from the other two tanks.

Paladins are the defenders.
Warriors are the survivors.
Dark Knights are the slayers.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Jobs are the bread and butter of this game, if one feels bad and is suffering from poor design choices it needs to be made a top priority and adjusted as soon as they possibly can. Simply leaving job changes to each #.X patch is ridiculous and is a trend that needs to stop. If they've completed the changes they feel are best and finalized what they want to do, we should get a hot-fix. There should be no waiting for that kind of thing when the jobs are the direct way we interact with the game on a day to day basis, they should be a huge priority and the changes they make should not be held back until the next content update.

We needs only look to Astro and the impact their lengthily delays had on player perception. Astro was actually decent in Midas; some groups favouring it over White Mage, yet few bothered. Why? It developed a stigma due to the awful first impression and was allowed to languish for over a year. The subsequent Balance buffs in 3.4 were a desperate plea from the developers for us to give it a chance—a plea they never had to make if these changes weren't delayed. Samurai and Dark Knight are in similar positions, albeit far better off than Astro. Sadly, changes don't seem to be coming until 4.3. We can only hope they're meaningful.

[Reynhart]

You can't DPS if you're dead.

You can if a good healer saves you. But a parser won't tell you that you're being carried by your healer.