Im Done

[BloodRubyXII]

If you sub to any MMO for the PvP (which I do, by the way) it never ends well. I unsubbed for the PvP but came back for LP with the contingency plan of finding something else to do if it doesn't work out. PvP in MMORPGs though is generally a privileged, not a right.

Also of course the PvP is group centric; it's a MULTIPLAYER game.

[Levy9]

If you sub to any MMO for the PvP (which I do, by the way) it never ends well. I unsubbed for the PvP but came back for LP with the contingency plan of finding something else to do if it doesn't work out. PvP in MMORPGs though is generally a privileged, not a right.

That isn't always the case. I played Blade & Soul for some time and it has a strong PvP presence despite having a fully voice acted ongoing storyline and competent PvE endgame content like the Tower of Infinity and instanced dungeons. Both the PvP and PvE content was active, whereas this game's PvP is mostly dead between content updates for PvP. WoW still has an active PvP base and it had an extremely active base of PvP players back in it's heyday, despite it's stronger focus on PvE content.

Edit (additional comments)

Damn, there goes one of the greats. Add another to the already-large pile of players that quit over the shitty 4.0 pvp rehaul.

3.0 PvP is probably the most overrated thing on these forums. I've participated in pvp off an on since 2.0 and 3.0 pvp was just an extension of the former 2.0 system with some slight adjustments here and there. It was another lazy insertion of the pve game balance into a pvp context. I happen to prefer BLM as my main DPS for pvp (it was my only DPS class at 60 during HW). Turns out that in 2.0 & 3.0, BLM was a sleep bot and not an actual DPS class. Nah, you weren't about to bust out a slow casting turret mage rotation designed to battle scripted pve bosses in the middle of a mobile pvp match. Swiftcast -> Sleep, maybe nightwing after purify, (another AOE sleep for pvp). Run around and spam scathe and phantom dart, put the enemy healer to sleep so your team can burst. Double digit crowd control timers and pve rotations that don't make any sense in a pvp format.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4mNWbkfjf4

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

A multiplayer game that's had issues and complaints about botting and exploiting for half a year now, not surprisingly only AFTER XP was starting to be offered, on top of sweeping changes that the previously-dedicated regulars reacted poorly to, and all of this barely acknowledged, if at all.

So yeah. I can totally understand why he's leaving. Hate to see him go, but outside of raid obligations, or when my remaining friends want to party up for PvP, I find myself wanting to be on even less these days too. Even with all the other things the game has to offer.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

"Overrated", but a dedicated, competitive community formed around it, even with all the neglect from SE, and shunning from players.

What has 4.0 PvP accomplished? A safe space for botting? XP for finding a way to perform even more poorly than most are already too lazy to do/do right in PvE? Proof that "simplifying" something that people don't try to learn anyways doesn't make it easier at all? Successfully gutting a community in favor of an e-sports pipe dream they seem too clueless to pull off when they can't/won't even address bigger and longer standing problems first?

Please, help me out here.

[Levy9]

"Overrated", but a dedicated, competitive community formed around it, even with all the neglect from SE, and shunning from players.

IIRC, didn't the Fold die completely in 2.0, which prompted SE to replace it with the Feast's new medal mechanic and arena in 3.0? What makes 2.0's base combat so much different from 3.0? I participated in both. They were essentially the same thing give or take a few changes and HW abilities.

What has 4.0 PvP accomplished? A safe space for botting? XP for finding a way to perform even more poorly than most are already too lazy to do/do right in PvE?

I was talking about the general combat system and class balance. For the record, I think the botting issue should be addressed. I never made an argument in favor of XP rewards in PvP, especially not for losing. In fact, the incentive structure is the biggest problem in PvP currently. In terms of 4.0 casualization, it doesn't get much more casual than randomly spawning objectives that decide the game in Frontlines, or the regularly occurring scenarios where you are not required to fight the enemy team to win the game mode.

Frontlines is an RNG fest inside of a three-way, free-for-all brawl layered with game winning PvE mechanics. Your skill at responding to the RNG PvE mechanics is ultimately more important than how well you fight. It's fun, but it has very little competitive integrity. I don't understand the people who seemingly only play frontlines bashing 4.0 pvp for being casual, lacking depth or being or imbalanced.

[BloodRubyXII]

"Overrated", but a dedicated, competitive community formed around it, even with all the neglect from SE, and shunning from players.

What has 4.0 PvP accomplished? A safe space for botting? XP for finding a way to perform even more poorly than most are already too lazy to do/do right in PvE? Proof that "simplifying" something that people don't try to learn anyways doesn't make it easier at all? Successfully gutting a community in favor of an e-sports pipe dream they seem too clueless to pull off when they can't/won't even address bigger and longer standing problems first?

Please, help me out here.

Nah think you covered pretty much just about everything in the shortest usage of space possible. I said it during the announce though, eSports for this game will never happen, it worked on WoW because the following is so big, you can queue up for an unranked game at 4 in the morning and still get in within minutes, sometimes instantly. Try queueing for anything on here after 10pm. Very little chance; I hear queues for both LP and solo are practically nonexistent right now on Aether. If you're not part of an LP at the moment (I am, personally) - no solo queue games for you; period. 16 people queueing LP is practically 80% of the solo q regs pool lol. Also the devs react the feedback quickly and communicate their reaction to it, it's not perfect, but as someone who plays ranked on both - whilst I don't really enjoy WoW anymore I didn't realise how lucky I was until I compared both sets of devs. eSports here would just be the same 4 or 6 teams playing over and over again for easy money, the true competitive nature is very, very faint.

[Crit]

Adding 2 or 3 more abilities to every job in its current state would be an amazing compromise.

Botting will forever be a problem, my guess is because SE doesn't know how to deal with it since they only focus on JP's community and I'm almost positive they don't Not? Hope someone corrects me on that

Win-trading hasn't been an issue in feast recently, by recently I mean last season, there were only throwers

As for quick chat, it's actually objectively better than the normal chat for sure because quick phrases at a press of one button is much more efficient, granted strategies can't be communicated and you can't correct people as the match is going on so they adjust immediately but all in all that's what the PvP discords are for, the community is small to begin with so that's not really an issue. Quick chat also did help the toxicity issue for sure, with this community being particularly more sensitive so derogatory connotative use of the phrases is at least healthier.

[Wintersandman]

quick phrases at a press of one button is much more efficient

Macros can solve this just as easily. People still have their bongo drum get to the pads from LotA after 4 years.

Minor note: It's both, but the skillset issue still hasn't been resolved.

I agree 100%. Now abilities function completely differently. Still have to read the tooltips and SE's lack of training/information leads to a learning curve.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

"Seemingly only play Frontlines."

The Fold died because of poor balancing, gear imbalances (which were fixed and became a universal thing with Frontlines/ilvl sync), and generally poor reception and complete ignoring by the more PvE-focused, allergic to/hateful toward PvP community of this game. And while I never implied 3.x PvP was perfectly balanced, it was a hell of a lot better than this "foundation" of a system that lacks depth, and STILL fails to be the appeal for "E-Sports Feast" that they so wildly tipped the scales for.

Funny though that 2.0 to 3.0 combat was "essentially the same thing" that many players enjoyed (even if imperfect) and claim held more depth and longevity than what we have now; many players, not unlike yourself who were there for all of it. As was I.

[Levy9]

I didn't mean you specifically. For example, there are threads where people complain about class balance while citing their experience in Frontlines only. Others chime in and blame 4.0 pvp balance.

The Fold was imbalanced for a lot of the same reasons as 3.0 Feast. They both had double digit crowd control times for abilities and class kits that simply didn't belong in PvP, while other classes translated well. MCH was widely considered one of the best classes in 3.0 PvP though. You almost never saw MCH's in 3.0 PvE content, but I'd queue for PvP and my games would be full of them.

There were still gear imbalances in 3.0 Frontlines, even with ilvl sync. I remember seeing people in 3.0 Frontlines getting one shot from max health by melee dps limit breaks. If you didn't meet a certain hp threshold with your gear configuration the limit break would kill, regardless of the ilvl sync. I like the core of what we have now better balance-wise. It just needs more traits & abilities.