Skill Speed on DRK over other stats?

[Nedkel]

Well i cant see anywhere people discussing this topic, so i should start.

Not just long time ago i was certain this stat is useless, until i realized how big impact on dps does 1-2-3 combo on DRK has, i realized that in other thread when arguing about bloodspiler and tbn, and understand its neither a dps loss or a gain.

And here whenever i think longer and longer about that, if GCD does so big impact on our ability to sustain MP and do dps, wouldnt it be the thing to just entirely focus on skill speed with direct hit as a addition to it?
So i did some research with 2 tools i found on the internet and according to them:
These what i compared:
1. DH - Det - crit build
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/15OCV
2. Skill speed - DH build
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/15OII

And here is the comparison on google spreadsheet (not mine, someone created it):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

According to that, with the #1 i have about 10.4% more dmg from 1 hit, and the #2has 2.511% stronger AA, 2.5% stronger dot damage and 0.29 sec faster GCD.
If understand it right, every 7 GCD i have 1 extra, resulting in (for soule eater comboi took the entire combo value and divided it by 3 for the sake of calculations) on average in 2240 potency within 17 seconds, while the first build will do 1960 x 1.10 = 2156 potency in 17 seconds.
Including AA into it, there is 98 potency advantage of the SS build over the "regular one", and not only this buy also additional MP coming from the extra Siphon strike and more frequent skill usage overall with bloodweapon as well, and the salted earth dot damage boost on top of that.

Plunge and carve spit may bias the result towards the #1 build, so they may be equal.

The SS option seems attractive since its cheaper to get, way cheaper, and using SS more often looks more fun. :P
How do you guys think?

[Mycow8me]

Every time you clip a gcd in an actual fight you are lowering the usefulness of all that extra skillspeed so its a gamble and may even depend on your connection/ping. More than likely plunge during bloodweapon would be a clip every time at a certain amount of skillspeed but unsure how high it would need to be and may as well forget doubleweaving carve and spit and utilize hardslash for single weave. Theoretically you also lower the usefulness from bloodweapons -recast the higher your skillspeed is.

I've thought about trying this a few times but I clip gcds irregularly with the little skill speed I do have so it probably wouldn't work for me.

[Shinkyo]

I haven’t done detailed math but 2 things to consider:
- SS loses value anytime you have to be away from the boss because your GCD progression/lead is reseted.
- SS has a linear progression whereas Crit is exponential. At higher value, crit is better because it affect both crit rate and crit modifier

The first item is the main issue with SS because unless you’re fighting a training dummy with 100% uptime, you are going to lose some of the benefit

[Aana]

I haven’t done detailed math but 2 things to consider:
- SS loses value anytime you have to be away from the boss because your GCD progression/lead is reseted.
- SS has a linear progression whereas Crit is exponential. At higher value, crit is better because it affect both crit rate and crit modifier

The first item is the main issue with SS because unless you’re fighting a training dummy with 100% uptime, you are going to lose some of the benefit

1st off:
The GCD 'reset' from disengaging the boss is a common misconception. With more SS you are more likely to get an extra GCD before a boss jumps/disengage than without it. Sometimes you will get it, sometimes you wont. Think of every time you have ever been THIIIS close to landing that big (insert awesome GCD move or finishing a combo) before you disengaged and couldn't quite get it. Those are the moments you DO get more damage from SS before it jumps. But there are plenty of times it jumps in the middle of a GCD and your SS doesn't give you the bonus hit. But average that out over time playing for hours, days, weeks and you will see a normal distribution of times SS would or would not have made a difference and you will ultimately find SS will increase your damage on average by the amount it lowered your GCD timer on disengages while still offering the DPS boost you get from constant fighting. You don't have to be engaged long enough to earn an ENTIRE extra GCD from SS to be valuable.

This same discussion has come up with any speed enhancing trait like haste in every game ever. But you don't have to stay engaged long enough to get an entire extra action from haste to get its benefit. IE: if you hit a monster 1x per second (10 hits per 10 seconds) and equip 10% haste. You don't have to actually hit it for 10 seconds and get your 'free' 11th hit to have haste increase your damage. Its a little unintuitive, but over the long haul you will perform better.

2nd off:
Actually SS has exponential returns. Dropping your GCD by a flat increment gets better the more you have. Whats the DPS increase on GCDs going from:
2.5 seconds to 2.4 seconds? 4.17% boost. Whoo.
2.0 seconds to 1.9 seconds? 5.26% boost. Nifty.
1.0 seconds to 0.9 seconds? 11.11% boost. Wow.
0.1 seconds to 0.0 seconds? INFINITY BOOOOOOOOST! (You also break the servers).

Extreme examples, but just showing that the more you have, the better adding more gets. This doesn't do anything about double weaving and stuff, but its still exponential. The real problem on Drk is the double weaving issues and DH/Crit scaling stronger, faster and to a lesser extent TP limitations. But if you get 'enough' SS it would eventually overtake every stat in the game as it's the only one that can literally hit infinity (theoretically. We don't have enough gear for that).

[Shinkyo]

snip

True point about the exponential benefit (if only you could reach such low value).
The GCD reset isn’t a misconception though. As pointed out, sometimes you’ll get that extra gcd, sometimes you won’t.
That make the stat lacking in consistency which is the issue I was trying to highlight.
With other stats, the effect is never wasted (but you may have rng tied to it)

[Nedkel]

Im going to give it a try anyway, the concept seems cool.

[RLofOBFL]

For DRK BIS this tier, Skill Speed builds are actually pretty viable.

"Originally posted by Emiin:

Best in Slot - 4.2 Edition

Note - These builds are at optimal play, and simulated with a Heavensward meta speedrun composition. Melds are technically still your discretion. Direct Hit and Critical Hit are within 0-10 dps of each other depending on the gearset. Math Wizards recommend DHit. As always, pick the speed you are most comfortable with, and have fun! - Note - actual numbers are larger than this thanks to wDMG buffs, etc.

Slowboye, 2.42 GCD, 2.17 Blood Weapon http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/14X7F

Fastboye, 2.37 GCD, 2.13 Blood Weapon http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/14X38

Sanicboye, 2.33 GCD, 2.10 Blood Weapon http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/14X8S

Dark Knight Guide - Regularly updated as of 4.2 https://goo.gl/u1vW1C"

[Nedkel]

For DRK BIS this tier, Skill Speed builds are actually pretty viable.

"Originally posted by Emiin:

Best in Slot - 4.2 Edition

Note - These builds are at optimal play, and simulated with a Heavensward meta speedrun composition. Melds are technically still your discretion. Direct Hit and Critical Hit are within 0-10 dps of each other depending on the gearset. Math Wizards recommend DHit. As always, pick the speed you are most comfortable with, and have fun! - Note - actual numbers are larger than this thanks to wDMG buffs, etc.

I wonder if going deeper into skillspeed, will it affect dps even more like crit does the more you have, the bigger bonus it gives.

[Crater]

In early-ish Deltascape, I had DRK scores on FFLogs that were in the top 30 (at the time) on v1s and v2s, using an extremely high Skill Speed build (2.24s base GCD I think, 2.02 with Blood Weapon), and in an off-meta party composition that included a BLM, SAM, and WHM - if I'd had Battle Litany, Hypercharge, and both AST cards and SCH's Chain Strategem, I'm fairly confident they would have been top-10 scores.

I quit the game in 4.1, so I'm not 100% sure what things are like now, or if the available gear supports that kind of high-SkS build as well as it did in Deltascape, but assuming that nothing's changed in a major way, stacking Skill Speed on DRK is very competitive with any other stat focus, and quite a lot of fun compared to a comparatively slow 2.3x or 2.4x GCD build - but it relies on you being capable, in terms of player skill as well as the technical requirement of having fairly low latency, of actually keeping up with that speed without clipping your GCD and losing your speed advantage, and without overcapping your resources, particularly while under Blood Weapon.

[Aana]

True point about the exponential benefit (if only you could reach such low value).
The GCD reset isn’t a misconception though. As pointed out, sometimes you’ll get that extra gcd, sometimes you won’t.
That make the stat lacking in consistency which is the issue I was trying to highlight.
With other stats, the effect is never wasted (but you may have rng tied to it)

Lacking consistency isn't really a problem though. Direct hit and crit also 'lack consistency', but that doesn't stop them from being top tier DPS stats for most classes. The important part is that over time, over many instances, over many fights Crit/DH result in a damage increase. Any small section of 1 fight you may or may not get a crit just as you may or may not get the extra GCD. But over time you will get more damage as sample size increases.

Think of SS more like driving down a street with stoplights every block. But this street sucks and:
* The blocks are all the same length with a light at every intersection (passing a light is a GCD)
* The lights aren't synchronized at all. Completely random red/greens. You cant predict when you will have to stop before hand or gurantee you 'hit all the lights' (this is the random engage time in any fight before you have to disengage for mechanics/boss jumps)
* The SS is how fast you can accelerate your car from a stop and how fast it goes in general. (if not interrupted, blocks/GCDs are determined by speed/SS)
* 2 cars. SS car takes 10% less time to go between any given street block than Slowboi car.(10% lower GCD rate on SS car)

So lets put a fast SS car next to a slow SS car and drive down the street. Lights green both take off. SS car jumps out in front. Both get stuck by the 1st light. Repeat. Both get stuck at the second. 3rd light SS car squeezes though the yellow while SlowBoi gets stuck again. SS car is now 1 light (GCD) ahead. Repeat this scenario forever. SS car will end up with more GCDs than SlowBoi car over time even though they are constantly stopping (disengaging and resetting their GCD timer).

In a real fight, if you have a long engage period, that's just a string of green lights and SS car will get ahead period. Everytime you have to disengage its a stoplight and you may or may not get that extra GCD. 10% less SS means you will land that extra hit 10% of the time. So after ~10 disengages, 10% SS build will (statistically) land 1 more hit which is a 10% damage boost to the last gcd. While engaged you have a 10% boost as well. So in the end, you always get an overall 10% boost to everything.

The important part is: If SS car takes -10% time for each block distance than Slowboi car You do NOT need to drive through 10 lights straight for SS car to get an 11th for free. SS car can still get ahead only going a couple lights at a time because there will be times that SS car gets an extra light just under the buzzer that Slowboi cant make.

If this street went on forever SS car would end up 10% farther. Every light could go red at anymoment. SS car has a 10% greater chance of making it through any given light than Slowboi. So eventually SS car will make 10% more lights regardless of the pattern and get 10% ahead. SS car will always get more GCDs/Lights than slowboi no matter what. Resetting your GCD at every red light doesn't stop that from happening. Breaking up a fight doesn't stop SS from realizing it's advantage.

With current gear levels (and other factors like TP and double weaving problems) Crit/DH still do more damage. That's why SS is 'worse', not because it resets when you stop attacking.