"Toxic"? or Just advice you don't want to hear?

[Canopia]

I can understand trying to help, and I try to help but I limit it to extreme cases like a paladin who never uses flash at all during the run. Most people will make small mistakes that dont need me instructing them on how to play. Of course people fail to understand a big detail with "help" is that there are other people who are serious douche-canoes about bossing people around and when someone bites back, they use the "only trying to help" as an excuse for their douche-canoeing. If people get enough of those types of people, its only understandable to view help with people being bossy douche-canoes. Its a little thing called "conditioning". If you have enough people conditioning players to view help as being a bossy douche-canoe, they cant help viewing any help, no matter how innocuous as essentially someone being a know it all and bossing them around.

Players snapping at you is only a symptom of the cause and coming down hard on them will only reinforce the conditioning that you were just being a bossy douche-canoe trying to order them around.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I argued with Thirdchild over this in Pvp. My points then are that the problem with advice is:

1. As random stranger guy in a roulette, you don't have the authority or standing to give advice. Imagine if someone walked up to you on the street and criticized your fashion. To a lesser extent, it's similar. Ideally FCs should be doing this, because you have a relationship with them.
2. Generally people give advice at the worst times, like right after a galling failure. People need time to process failure and emotions, then they may be receptive. You just lost a pvp match, and its your fault; the last thing someone should do is immediately msg you with advice on how to not do that.

The memory is quite fresh. But consider these factors too:

1. I am an experienced player in an aspect of the game that has just suddenly attracted a bigger crowd that largely doesn't know what to do, or how to do it. While there are guides out there, some even written by me, I can't be sure anyone has bothered to read anything or be familiar with it ahead of time, thus the responsibility of trying to help newer players does fall to me. Of course, I don't HAVE to, but if they're gonna be on my team, I'm only hurting myself and them in the long run by not doing so.
2. I hear you on that, and raise you the story when I told my team (as they're about to do it), "Please don't drop off cliffs to get to the ice when there are enemy players down there already. Healers don't have aoe heals anymore and you'll be showing up at half health, easy to take out." I then proceed to take out 3 people on the other team that did just that. Then a healer of all people chimes in with "Shut up, Lace, no one's interested in your suggestions."

Take a wild guess what happened after that?

[Klareh]

"UGH HEALER SUCKS"
"IM SURROUNDED BY NOOBS"
"FK THIS GROUP"
^Toxic

"Hey, perhaps you could do x instead because it will..."
"If you A, then you'll get more B"
Constructive, polite, informative, not toxic.

Younger generations do not take criticism well, and/or those with over pampering parents. (This does not apply to all younger generations, some have good parents.)

[Rokke]

@ OP,
I can't believe people think of themselves as so egocentric as to point out others flaws and tell them about it, especially if it's in a GAME. If you are raiding, the constructive criticism is expected, but really, you feel you NEED to tell people what they did wrong? Maybe ASK before TELLING. It's super rude for people to just go off on someone else. If you are just that type of person that NEEDS to tell people what they are doing wrong, maybe you are in the wrong and have some work to do on your personality in being sensitive towards others.

No way is this a shot at you, but many many people feel they are doing good by 'telling' people what to do rather than wording it in a polite way what they did wrong (and asking first).

If I get a mute bard, Im going to go "Bard, songs?". If both healers are dead and the redmage isn't raising, "Redmage, get the healers".

Its this kind of treading softly on eggshells because uwu feelings that made Shinryuu normal bottle neck. Are you so thin skinned that someone pointing things out is immediately some kind of personal insult?

[Vidu]

I argued with Thirdchild over this in Pvp. My points then are that the problem with advice is:

1. As random stranger guy in a roulette, you don't have the authority or standing to give advice. Imagine if someone walked up to you on the street and criticized your fashion. To a lesser extent, it's similar. Ideally FCs should be doing this, because you have a relationship with them.
2. Generally people give advice at the worst times, like right after a galling failure. People need time to process failure and emotions, then they may be receptive. You just lost a pvp match, and its your fault; the last thing someone should do is immediately msg you with advice on how to not do that.

I honestly cant agree with either of your points... but let me adress them seperatly.

1. Thats a very bad comparison you're drawing there - unless we're talking about glamour-advice (something some people also seem to desperatly need...). A better comparison would be: You see someone trying to open a door, that you wanna pass through aswell. The door has a sign saying "push". The person is trying to pull. For 5 minutes now. Will you just idly stand by, have their and your time wasted, til their mother comes along to tell them "Sweety... you need to push this door..."
If someone is struggeling with some fundamental stuff in the game and you know better, I'd say you dont only have the authority but the obligation to give them a (polite) advice. You're not only making your current run faster/smoother for everyone around but are also helping that person to have an overall better experience with the game. I had to kick tanks and healers from content because they couldnt hold hate (or wouldnt even try, no tank-stance, no flash, no... nothing) or absolutly failed to heal. I doubt that those people are having a very good experience with the game but totally failing isnt something we should tolerate because of "feelings". Which brings me to
2. As I basically already said: Even if this is just a game, I dont believe in treating everyone like a fragile little thing. Advice should be presented in a polite, encouraging matter - "Hey, doing [THIS] works great for me! Maybe you want to try it aswell?" - but it absolutly should be presented, if you can. Part of the game is to sit down after a wipe/loss and ask yourself "What went wrong right now and how can we prevent this from happening?"
While I would advice to try not to point fingers straight away, I also know that you wont get anywhere if you're not honest about what happend. If you want to progress, there isnt room for everyone to make sure they're in a mental state to recive advice.
And sometimes, a quick advice given during a fight can prevent a failure in the first place - which is to be preferd, in my book.

If your ego is so fragile that you cant take advice in a videogame, you should probably stick to solo-games.
I'm all for treating people nicely, with respect and adressing them in a polite manner. But I dont agree with walking on eggshells and considering "feelings" and "emotions" when giving advice on fundamental things.
Dont understand how flash works at level 50? Jep, you've opend up yourself for some advice there!

I also had great success with giving polite and friendly advice and I'm sure the people that were willing to take it, are having a better experience with the game alltogether now. Why should I withhold the chance to better themself from anyone?

You're talking about the feelings of the person reciving the advice, aka the person in need of advice - what about the feelings of the other people in that party? What about their time? Wiping and failing is frustrating for everyone and if the reason is that one person is not able to handle mechanics or do their job properly, thats frustrating (a bad emotion!) for everyone in that run.
What is your solution to this?
Praying that the WHM will figure out that thats a stack marker this time and not run away and die like during the last three attempts?
Kick the WHM to get a healer in who knows what they're doing, without saying a word to the WHM?
Or... maybe... just let them know what they need to do - at the risk of hurting their feelings or maybe, just maybe, giving them the feeling of "Oh, I can do this after all!" and on top of that being able to finish the run?

[MoroMurasaki]

If I get a mute bard, Im going to go "Bard, songs?". If both healers are dead and the redmage isn't raising, "Redmage, get the healers".

Its this kind of treading softly on eggshells because uwu feelings that made Shinryuu normal bottle neck. Are you so thin skinned that someone pointing things out is immediately some kind of personal insult?

I didn't know I could agree so hard with something before o.o

[AppleJinx]

The only way to avoid this is by queuing with a friend so you guys can kill randos that are playing badly in 4 man dungeons. As for everything else it's always a coin toss and there isn't really anything you can do about it other than just bear with it or leave outright.

[Niraye]

i just help out in mentor roulette generally because otherwise people seem very snappy at you... so usually i just give some advice on what to do for boss and what not, if they see it they see it if not and it goes fine thats okay too, but outside of mentor they can be pretty snappy if you say a word in chat, I've gotten instances where talking is considered time-wasting

ps : applejinx i love your signature!

[Krokov]

You can probably tell them anything and everything, all that person would have to do is just turn off their chat, just saying.

[Canadane]

You can probably tell them anything and everything, all that person would have to do is just turn off their chat, just saying.

I have met a couple people who have their chat turned off.
We would only ever find out after much frustration because our advise on how to not wipe us was ignored.