"Toxic"? or Just advice you don't want to hear?

[SenorPatty]

Calling someone out is not advice. Calling someone out is criticism. You might try to phrase it in a "nice" manner, but the general thrust is that you think you know better than someone else and you feel it's your place to tell them that. And believe me, people can sense that. Some here might call it "coddling" but as someone who teaches and mentors a variety of people on a regular basis, I know there is one key item that is important. You have to keep control in their hands. Yes, you are the expert

There's nothing wrong with knowing better about something than someone else and criticism in not inherently a bad thing either.. Since we're talking about real people here behind a screen, tell me how much sense does it make for someone to get mad at someone else when they start their new job at say, a coffee shop for example, because that person basically has more knowledge about things run than they do? Especially if, as a newbie, you're royally screwing up?

Pre-sb, I had started lvling a up pld in a low lvl dgn and I was not aware about the difficulty in holding aggro with it with just one flash. Someone else in my party advised that it was okay to use flash at least two times and spread enmity combo across mobs because I didn't have aggro stance yet. I took the advice and it worked like a charm.

Its not about coddling. Sometimes, players just have let their ego go, take a step back, look objectively at what people are telling them and see if it makes sense. The more wrapped up in your ego you are, the more prickled you become at anything someone says to you.

[New_Game_Plus]

I absolutely hate when people fling around the word "toxic". It's absolutely subjective. You say something that someone else doesn't agree with you're labeled toxic.

But that's not what I came here to say. In the few groups I've been in where someone offers advice and the person will usually respond negatively and for no reason at all. It's really quite a shame.

[miraidensetsu]

There's nothing wrong with knowing better about something than someone else and criticism in not inherently a bad thing either.

There are no such thing as omniscience. The "tipped person" knows why she isn't doing that mechanic right. The "tip giver" knows why or is just assuming things? And that "why" are the whole center of the question.

And criticism can be a good thing (if done right by both parties), but it is never a comfortable thing to receive. Of course the criticized person can feel bad, specially if s/he wasn't expecting that. And it hurts to any person to know that s/he are screwing up things (unless, of course, if that person is scewing up on purpose).

That's why people can be defensive when receiving what you guys call "tips". And mind you: everyone receives a criticism - or an after-failure tip - on different ways.

Since we're talking about real people here behind a screen, tell me how much sense does it make for someone to get mad at someone else when they start their new job at say, a coffee shop for example, because that person basically has more knowledge about things run than they do? Especially if, as a newbie, you're royally screwing up?

If that person that supposely knows how the things works is a client of that cofee shop, the new employee hasn't any means to know if that client really knows how the things run. And do that client knows the whole picture? What gives that client so much authority over the new employee if he knows only the theory (and nothing about the circumstances why that employee failed)?

It is more complex than you think. Waaaay more complex.

Pre-sb, I had started lvling a up pld in a low lvl dgn and I was not aware about the difficulty in holding aggro with it with just one flash. Someone else in my party advised that it was okay to use flash at least two times and spread enmity combo across mobs because I didn't have aggro stance yet. I took the advice and it worked like a charm.

That's good. But what you've done if the tip you received was wrong? For example, I received a "tip" saying that I shouldn't DPS as healer. Never. Nowadays, I DO DPS as healer (at my discretion, since healing is my priority). Those 4 seconds that Holy gives me is enough to ready the tank for some more punching session.

And what if that tip was something too generic (like "as tank, you should hold aggro", without telling how)? What if the tip is about something that person is working on? If that tip is something that person knows quite well on theory, but can't do it ATM for whatever reason? Do you take those things into account when giving a tip? If don't, you aren't giving a tip. You're calling out.

Its not about coddling. Sometimes, players just have let their ego go, take a step back, look objectively at what people are telling them and see if it makes sense. The more wrapped up in your ego you are, the more prickled you become at anything someone says to you.

That is particularly valid for those "tip givers" that thinks that "the person who receive the tip should swallow the pride and accept gracefully the tip handed out by the great intelligence that was me and be eternally thankful". Of course I'm exagerating, but there are "tip givers" out there that thinks that way. And those "tip givers" who thinks this way have a serious ego problem.

[miraidensetsu]

I absolutely hate when people fling around the word "toxic". It's absolutely subjective. You say something that someone else doesn't agree with you're labeled toxic.

That's why human sciences is so hard.

There are no such thing as unquestionable definition of what is toxic. Not even a consensus. Therefore, I can be toxic even without doing any harm, just by discording from someone.

But that's not what I came here to say. In the few groups I've been in where someone offers advice and the person will usually respond negatively and for no reason at all. It's really quite a shame.

That was even a tip? Or it was some criticism disguised as tip?

People can fell that. And that's why they become on defensive.

[Vidu]

Agreed, but there are more scenarios:

3) That person don't have much time to play and thus his/her learning process takes more time;
4) That person don't have much experience with that role/class and got the char somewhat ready and is yet getting used to it. Comes to mind jump potion users, lvl 50 SAM/RDM, lvl 30 DRK/AST/MCH or someone that is playing with someone else's account;
5) That person is a slow learner.

It's your fault? Of course not, you just were unlucky.



Depending on the failure, the other 2 or 6 or even 22 people out there would get more time wasted if you don't explain in enough details because that would means more wipes. I can't say for everyone or every situation.

But we can agree that a tip or any way to help that player will only work if that player wants to be helped. Otherwise, literally it can't be helped. And how do you know if that person wants help? Communication. Just ask privately "Do you need help?" Do you have any doubt about this boss?"

And I would bet that most people on Duty Finder would prefer to spend 5 more minutes teaching some newbie and get the clear than get a couple more wipes, disband the party and spend another 30+ minutes on the queue to do again the same duty (if DPS).

I'm sorry, but I cant accept any of your scenarios as valid. Not considering that I'm willing to give everyone til level 50 to graps the basics of their class - I hope I made that clear earlier.
So, to conter those scenarios one by one:

3) If the person has little time to play and finds themself struggeling with the class they've picked due to that, they should probably ask themself "With how little time I have - should I really be playing a class that is this complicated?". The beauty of the game lies within us being able to pick any class we want on one character. If one doesnt suit us, another one might.
4) First, Jump Potions: If you buy one you are - as far as I'm concerend - respnosible to get yourself up to date with your class before entering any dungeon. I know thats not happening, but personally I kinda expect any Jump Potion User to sit down, read their skills, learn what their class does and then enter a dungeon. They made the choice to buy the Jump Potion, I also expect them to think "Mmh, maybe I take a look at all those shiny buttons before doing anything else" - I know, not always happening, but I'd call it a "rightful expectation" that someone who buys a Jump Potion also informs themself. (Honestly, I wish the game would force Jump Potion people into some sort of tutorial or so).
Second: Granted, those jobs get a little more leeway - I say a "little" because, considering how you unlock them, the player behind them is new to the job, not the game and should therefor, at that point, have figured out to maaaybe look at their tooltips before entering a dungeon.
Third: Playing with someone elses account is against the ToS - or well, to be precisise: Sharing Account details is. If you absolutly have to put someone who hasnt played this game yet infront of yours: Dont do that in a dungeon! Its rude and an unpleasent experience for everyone.
5) Bit the same as 3), but: If the person is a slow learner, they need to take a step back at somepoint and ask themself if thats the right class for them. Or they need to "work harder" - try a training dummy for a while, for example. At a certain point, a certain level of skill should be expected from everyone. And, seriously: I suck at melee DPS. Cant play it. I have almost all jobs at 70 (expect dragoon and monk), I tried melee dps in ARR, in HW, in SB... I will get drg and monk to 70 aswell. And I know that I have to hit positionals and how - and I can do that. But its a pain rather than a nice flow. So you know what I do? I just dont play melee DPS.

To the second part of your post:

You are aware that you cant send private messages in dungeons, right?
And giving advice only to one person in private seems also less ideal to me - I had several occassions when I (or someone else in that run) gave someone advice how to play a certain job and another person in that run was able to offer some more indept-explantions - like: I can tell you to watch out for your positionals on monk, but someone who mains monk might actually be able to tell you which combo is the best to open with and such. So they recived better advice, because it came from more people and the advice was benefitting everyone who might wanted to pick up said class in the future. Learned stuff myself that way!
That goes even more so for boss strategies - your second point there.
Why would I want to discuss them in private? I get that it can be upsetting being told "Okay, listen, you're doing everything wrong with this job", but... a boss strategy?

About the 5 minutes of teaching a newbie:
Now its just 5 minutes? Your first post sounded more like you wanted to take that newbie to the side and walk him through details in a couple hours because something basic couldnt possibly be of any help.

And here comes the depressing part now: It is very, very unlikely that you wipe because one person doesnt know what to do. In 4-man-dungeons you can get "lucky" and have the healer die to a mechanic, but thats about it. The game is so easy, that the newbie does not need to perform. So no one will want to wait for them - people get locked out of boss fights in the 24-man-raid because it does not matter wether or not that last DPS is there or not.
So no, people will not prefer to wait. Or to teach.
Both is quite sad, granted.