Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
Right. It wasn't optimal there. But when it doesn't kill you, and you can complete a task or end a fight more quickly -- lost healer DPS included -- by just taking that damage in order to keep dealing damage of your own, then that is the "good play". And this will continue into Savage raiding, even, such as when using Veil and Feint not to flee from Doomtrain's proximity damage knockback, propping yourself up with one of the ghost squares.

It's not just a matter of what you can survive; it's a matter of what you can get away with in terms of throughput and what's worth more. And more damaging effects, by themselves, don't teach that. It's a start, but it needs more.
No, no, and no: you are only playing this scenario in your head as ideally how you want it to happen, that not what happened 5 years ago, not what happened last year, not what happening this year, and it ain't gonna happen next year. You don't have to talk about optimization to me in raid, I do that a lot, and that's not even the topic being discussed here. This is about how to get people do basic algebra problem, not making the jump to calculus. Again, these examples are what really happening in the game:

- Me and some static mates were doing Sigma normal a few weeks ago. I noticed the O8 we were doing took a lot more time than usual to clear. In the end we cleared it no problem. but during loot roll, a RDM said something "well, that fight is a lot easier than I thought". And one of my static mate immediately burst out laughing over discord. I asked why, and she told me THAT RDM who just said the fight was easy was doing really low DPS, it wasn't below the tank, it was below even the healer.
- That "Shield blob" tank in another thread. Same thing, he did just about every thing wrong, yet after some argument he said he went in with another group and "clear it just fine", and just about any average player reading his thread know it is not fine.

See, the problem here is, from their perspective they are doing "fine", because that's basically what the game is telling them. That RDM saw a clear with no wipe, and believe the fight was easy. Maybe that tank believe "we clear it just fine" because to him, if he can clear the dungeon, than it's fine, and he did nothing wrong. And see, more often than not because this is the belief the game bestow on them, it's very difficult to convince these people they should improve. I don't think telling that RDM to play better will work. That tank made the thread because he basically reject singular advise from his group, and he would have continue to believe he's fine if he hadn't made that thread and 20 other people tell him he's wrong. The players can only do so much but ultimately, they can't swim against the current that is the system.