The general player base needs to improve

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

I have a somewhat mixed opinion about this...

Sure, the average player is not performing well, but, despite some people that just want to chill and play something fun after a hard day of work (they usually won't go to Savage, though), there are also players that can't perform that much higher. Yeah, "elitist" me all you want, but let me explain. In my static, we have, since the beginning of Deltastice, a PLD that really wants to play well. Yet, even despite explaining her how to play, and her being able to pull satisfying numbers on a dummy, she never got more than 2.5k on an actual fight. She isn't confident enough, she panicks too much, and whatnot. My point is : Some people will be stressed out quicker than others. In her case, she improves slowly, but we'll never kick her out of the static for it. And what's true for her might be true for more people than you think.

Yet, there are also players that are way too focused on themselves, think they perform well, while they can't pull their own weight, be it mechanically or in terms of DPS. That's a whole other problem, and I kinda agree with Rockette here : play with a static if you don't want to deal with those.

[Sesera]

snip

I think her case is a bit different because she wants to improve. She is clearly the type of player willing to say "Hi i'm a new here/not really confident, any advices" or at least if she is shy she will listen and try to apply advices she receives.
I hope she will be able to improve faster and faster in the future we need more people like her (willing to improve).

[KaivaC]

Unfortunately, player skill cannever be addressed until the devs design a proper difficulty curve. I firmly believe a large contributing factor is how incredibly easy the overwhelming majority of content is, which encourages poor habits. If players can stand in AoEs or ignore mechanics throughout supposed Expert dungeons or normal mode raids, what incentive do they have not to? Before anyone jumps to silly extreme examples, no dungeons shouldn't be Savage level nor should Savage itself return to Gordias. Doing so simply swings the scale too far in the opposite direction. A proper curve can be seen with Weeping City, which actively punished poor play without being overly difficult. On the flipside, Kugane Castle is among the worst dungeons ever designed. Why? Players aren't punished in the slightest for blatantly ignoring mechanics. Yojimbo coin phase does a maximum of 15k—not even 50% of people's HP in i290 gear. If it didn't take forever and a day to cast, people have no reason to even flinch. Once these bad habits are instilled, they become harder to break hence the frustration whenever something like say, Shinryu comes along. Suddenly, everything people have been doing doesn't work.

I agree, but unfortunately, we'll still get those players who seem to think that the only way to increase difficulty is by taking it to Savage levels...which is not what is suggested. I wouldn't mind starting to see some open-ended dungeons, with mobs having varying degrees of difficulty. Lock the best type of loot behind more difficult mobs. The devs could just make one of these dungeons and tie it into the lore by the WoL missing the adventure...this was alluded to in the quest line for Skalla.

Unpopular opinion: I enjoyed Gordias. It took us months but we cleared it just after Thordan came out. It was way too hard for a starter raid into a new expansion but it was good none the less. We busted our asses and I cried when we cleared 4. I wish we got a title for it. Midas was the right balance I thought.

Related opinion: I never pug anything. Raid group onry so I can avoid the general player base >.>

People don't want parsers so they dont need to be held accountable for their own playstyle. They don't want to know they're bad, they don't want to improve, "you don't pay my sub." So what can we do? Stick to your own groups imo. You can't fix people who firmly want to play at bare minimum capacity.

To be fair, from what I understand, Gordias unleashed hell on the raiding scene. I've never tried it myself, though I personally have a very high interest in challenging it.

Well we should start with something small and realistic. I'm talking about Hall of Novice and the training dummies.

Hall of novice needs an upgrade. Not just for jump potters but generally the whole populace. It should be a place where respective job trainers can teach some advanced combos or tips.

Training dummies need more than "beat this thing under 3mins". They should have the ability to be tweaked to auto-attacking you, have them set in groups (to test aoes) and other settings to allow different testing.

Those are things I feel SE could realistically do if they were serious about it and as I've mentioned, its a step.

Agreed. I mean, they spent a lot of time for Eureka. And I thought they had back-up teams for other content (like Ultimate). Surely, they could get a couple of interns to put something together?

The main problem is not really the players. It's the game itself. By making most of content relatively easy and, most of all, rushable, players don't know how to play anymore. Just put something a little more tricky and it's a catastrophe.
People don't bother to think anymore in this game so the game doesn't really require them to think.

It's even worse today when I see new players that are learning how to play the game and have already all the bad habits of the oldest veterans... and nothing will repair that.
Players also, as stated above, don't have anymore the party state of mind. Maybe only 10% of the players I met say hello when the instance starts and goodbye when it ends. It's the bare minimum...

What I mean is that the game changed the players and now it's too late.

I don't believe this is too late. In casual content, I'm mostly fine with payers not going all-out - so long as they play competently and don't get the party killed, I'm pretty lenient. It's just when we hit content that isn't faceroll...it's like the worst habits of randoms show up. I do feel like mentors need to stop being jackasses and actually do their roles.

I have a somewhat mixed opinion about this...

Sure, the average player is not performing well, but, despite some people that just want to chill and play something fun after a hard day of work (they usually won't go to Savage, though), there are also players that can't perform that much higher. Yeah, "elitist" me all you want, but let me explain. In my static, we have, since the beginning of Deltastice, a PLD that really wants to play well. Yet, even despite explaining her how to play, and her being able to pull satisfying numbers on a dummy, she never got more than 2.5k on an actual fight. She isn't confident enough, she panicks too much, and whatnot. My point is : Some people will be stressed out quicker than others. In her case, she improves slowly, but we'll never kick her out of the static for it. And what's true for her might be true for more people than you think.

Yet, there are also players that are way too focused on themselves, think they perform well, while they can't pull their own weight, be it mechanically or in terms of DPS. That's a whole other problem, and I kinda agree with Rockette here : play with a static if you don't want to deal with those.

I'd be cautious about non-DPS roles having to push DPS. DPS numbers from non-DPS should not be a full indication of their prowess as a player. A 3-4k+ DPS tank or healer would be amazing. But it shouldn't determine their ability, especially if they are doing their basic jobs. I caution the same warning in regards to DPS as well - naturally, the baseline should be around 3.5k as an average, but if a player is doing all the mechanics, contributing to rDPS, I wouldn't exactly think of them as a bad player (let me add in a note by saying obviously, if they aren't even pulling 2k on a fight, there's an issue there that needs to be addressed). Unfortunately, there's players (myself included) who, for a multitude of reasons, cannot join a static.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

I'd be cautious about non-DPS roles having to push DPS. DPS numbers from non-DPS should not be a full indication of their prowess as a player. A 3-4k+ DPS tank or healer would be amazing. But it shouldn't determine their ability, especially if they are doing their basic jobs. I caution the same warning in regards to DPS as well - naturally, the baseline should be around 3.5k as an average, but if a player is doing all the mechanics, contributing to rDPS, I wouldn't exactly think of them as a bad player (let me add in a note by saying obviously, if they aren't even pulling 2k on a fight, there's an issue there that needs to be addressed). Unfortunately, there's players (myself included) who, for a multitude of reasons, cannot join a static.

That's a whole other argument, but yeah, she's a wonderful tank. Still, that doesn't make everything in the current meta for Savage (not talking about optimal picks, here, just raw DPS). O8S P2 DPS check is 32.3k. Assuming all DPSs are at 5k5 DPS (big assumption here), healers + tanks need to do 10k3. Let's say both healers pull 1k5, tanks still need to make 3k5 each. In the way Savage is designed right now, tanks and healers are expected to DPS, so, even if she's a wonderful tank, tankiness wise, she isn't a wonderful FFXIV tank. Doesn't change the fact we're glad to play with her, but still : for higher tier content, everyone needs to have a perfect rotation.

But yeah, she's doing more than enough for Expert/EX primals, I agree.

[Rockette]

To be fair, from what I understand, Gordias unleashed hell on the raiding scene. I've never tried it myself, though I personally have a very high interest in challenging it.

Aww, it's been nerfed to the ground now, even at synched ilvl, they've nerfed actual mechanics.

It absolutely did unleash hell. People had complained Final Coil was too easy so the developers said, ok, TRY THIS THEN. There were a few oversights. Firstly, the new expansion meant people had to relearn their jobs. New jobs needed to be balanced and for a long time there was an actual players vs developers argument about Machinist in particular. The players stated the job was weak, SE stated that it wasn't weak, we were just bad. Adjustments were made later of course. Astrologian suffered the same sort of treatment.

While job rotations got far more complex than they were from ARR, the actual DPS requirement of Gordias basically meant if you didn't have a WHM that could carry the group while your tanks stayed in dps stance and your scholar was full time dps - you didn't clear. Tanks were also putting points into strength for the extra DPS which made them squishy, which made the healing check even harder. The world first players complained the dps check was so high it was actually a gear gate.

Not only all this - the fights were super dull. A3s was the most interesting but the others were just a chore. You had to preform at 100% capacity with zero mistakes through boring mechs. (My opinion). Not only was Gordias a BIG step up, pug groups couldn't even clear Bismark. The first primal had a high dps check too. The skill gap between people who challenged savage and casual players became massive. Groups fell over, people quit. The one part that really stands out remembering Gordias was how many hours I had to sink into crafting pots and food. One per craft, one minute + per craft, I needed 33 pots per our raid time, plus I crafted for others. I had to set aside hours per week each raid to struggle street these crafts we NEEDED to push our dps. Heavensward was a lot more of a grind to start off with.

Gordias made my group better players. Like I said, it was hard, it broke us weekly but it was such an achievement to get through it.

Now, we're finding "savage" in stormblood pretty tame. Week one / two clears. I understood they were pretty scared of making the same mistakes as Gordias but I thought they would turn it up a little for Sigma :/ In fact I'm sure they said the raids would scale up in difficulty so it's a little disappointing that they haven't.

I'm glad they're doing the Ultimate's. At least that's something to prog on while Savage has become the weeklies.

[Zojha]

Good luck with that?

I've been playing League of Legends for a long time. By design, the game will constantly pit you against opponents of your own skill level via matchmaking rating and adjust dynamically if your skill increases/decreases to give you just the right amount of challenge.

The game has been around for what, almost 10 years? now and it wasn't until the game shoved wards down people's throats for free that the lower elo brackets (Bronze/Silver - around 65% of the rated playerbase) started using them, i.e. the most basic sight control tool that allows you to avoid game losing ganks and ambushes easily while simultaneously allowing you to set them up, steal buffs and many more. To this day, masses of creeps are lost because people fail to last-hit them, people pick what they like whether it fits the team or not, people die to easy ganks and dives, people are building bad item builds, face-check brushes that make enemies invisible, don't capitalize on kills, ignore objectives and many, many more.

Sure, the playerbase did improve over those years - Things were even worse once - But it's been a glacial process and it's hard to tell just how much of that actually came from the players and how much from the devs just handing them stuff on a silver platter.

I don't think you can teach a playerbase. I think that if you want a better overall playerbase, the only reliable way to get one is to kick the lower end of the skill spectrum out of the game - Either directly, or via content they just cannot beat or enjoy.

[Shurrikhan]

Good luck with that?

I've been playing League of Legends for a long time. By design, the game will constantly pit you against opponents of your own skill level via matchmaking rating and adjust dynamically if your skill increases/decreases to give you just the right amount of challenge.

The game has been around for what, almost 10 years? now and it wasn't until the game shoved wards down people's throats for free that the lower elo brackets (Bronze/Silver - around 65% of the rated playerbase) started using them, i.e. the most basic sight control tool that allows you to avoid game losing ganks and ambushes easily while simultaneously allowing you to set them up, steal buffs and many more. To this day, masses of creeps are lost because people fail to last-hit them, people pick what they like whether it fits the team or not, people die to easy ganks and dives, people are building bad item builds, face-check brushes that make enemies invisible, don't capitalize on kills, ignore objectives and many, many more.

Sure, the playerbase did improve over those years - Things were even worse once - But it's been a glacial process and it's hard to tell just how much of that actually came from the players and how much from the devs just handing them stuff on a silver platter.

I don't think you can teach a playerbase. I think that if you want a better overall playerbase, the only reliable way to get one is to kick the lower end of the skill spectrum out of the game - Either directly, or via content they just cannot beat or enjoy.

Competitive games are a completely different beast, though. As long as players face only each other, just as the chance for reiteration, improvement, and nuance are nearly endless, so too can complacency be endlessly rewarded. As long as you play poorly, you don't have to play well, because you'll end up against players playing equally poorly. You need only be marginally better than the other 5% player to see victory. This would be like people thinking they only need to do as well, in something easily completed such that the competitive component can only be felt through the speed of completion, as those of equal skill to themselves. How would that oblige improvement?

A difficulty curve against fixed gradually and patternedly intensifying goals, on the other hand, will necessarily cut players off at a certain point if they actively refuse to improve, but the progress should be so gradual that players would lack any obvious place to draw a line in the sand and to point at and yell "Hey man, I don't use combos/oGCDs/proper positioning/resource regenerators/enmity skills/focus targeting because "I just do this for fun sorry I don't play this 24/7 okay?"

[Zojha]

A difficulty curve against fixed gradually and patternedly intensifying goals, on the other hand, will necessarily cut players off at a certain point if they actively refuse to improve, [...]"

...or are simply unable to.

Or do you truly think that you can crank difficulty up perpetually, no matter how slow and gradual? At the top level of "worse than ultimate", it is obvious this doesn't work, but at any level below there will also be people getting cut off, either voluntarily because they can't be bothered and play a different game, or because they simply are unable to for whatever reason.

The end result really is what I said: You kick the lower end out of the game.

That aside, the thing about competitive games is: Yes, you do indeed only need to play marginally better than those around you. But when you do, your rating gets adjusted upward, the people around you get better and you yourself need to get better to get the same effect again. And then you need to do it again. And again.
If you are complacent with where you are, you will be stuck and lose just as much as you win, which isn't something people want or like. People would rather win every time, obviously, and a lot of people get very frustrated with the fact that this isn't possible in a such a large competition.

[Shurrikhan]

...or are simply unable to.

Or do you truly think that you can crank difficulty up perpetually, no matter how slow and gradual? At the top level of "worse than ultimate", it is obvious this doesn't work, but at any level below there will also be people getting cut off, either voluntarily because they can't be bothered and play a different game, or because they simply are unable to for whatever reason.

The end result really is what I said: You kick the lower end out of the game.

That aside, the thing about competitive games is: Yes, you do indeed only need to play marginally better than those around you. But when you do, your rating gets adjusted upward, the people around you get better and you yourself need to get better to get the same effect again. And then you need to do it again. And again.
If you are complacent with where you are, you will be stuck and lose just as much as you win, which isn't something people want or like.

just as the chance for reiteration, improvement, and nuance are nearly endless

I'm wholly aware. But if one is content with a neutral or even negative win ratio, enjoying the fights nonetheless, there is nothing to push them to improve.

I think there's eventually going to be a cap to it, but there are also continually new forms of difficulty. Adding mechanic n does not push mechanics a through m to an extent beyond player ability nor is it, in itself, likely only in combination with a handful of other previously given mechanics, likely to overwhelm the player despite adding more to what is possible for good play while expecting core competency based on the lessons already practiced.

Difficulty isn't just going to be reducing windows of lenience further and further until only the lowest ping players or absolute most optimal play can get by. It need only build on itself and stimulate thought at to what the player can do to improve, and require proof of that thought through its execution.

In many ways, that's what we have now, except that the most fundamental competencies were never assured, such as the most basic elements of uptime, multiplicity, or reading comprehension, so that everything thereafter stands, in a sense, on pillars of sand, precisely because the curve allowed them to fall through. Most will develop their own stronger foundations and understanding from community resources, parsers, and/or thinking these things through on their own time, but as the content itself doesn't provide ready motive or benchmarks for this, many others will slip or be sifted through the cracks until later content must be necessarily weakened or that stratum isolated -- which, to an extent, they'd be right to complain about. Wherever possible, the means to be competent in a game should be made fairly obvious by the game itself.

[Metalwrath]

OP i have news for you.
A lot of the time they do know the mechanics they just choose to ignore them.This is because of 2 things.
A lot of players have attitude of i will dps and the other dps will do the mechanics for me.What happens a lot of time is several people have same selfish ideals so nobody does the mechanics.
Due to there not being proper Ilvl restrictions on older content and because most people now clear older content through level unsync you have a large player base that is brought up on the ideal of if you dps hard enough you can skip mechanics and never bother doing or learning them.This had been going on since Heavensward.

The only way to fix these issues are for SE to remove unsynced runs from game completly and have harsher max ilvl restrictions.