Why is the North American community so much worse than the Japanese one?

[Iceth]

Taking part in our kids lives is important, monitoring their behavior online is important and it takes effort. We have to be the 'bad guys' in order to effect change. Until we, as parents, make the effort nothing will change, it'll only get worse. Just my 2 cents worth.
*Not all parents are like this, sweeping generalization isn't what I'm doing here, just pointing out what seems to be the most prevelant

[Altena]

Trump is at fault? Hahahahaha.. That's the funniest thing I have heard all day.

Look, its obvious that he is a terrible leader and a worse human.. But he is not to blame for this one. Stop kidding yourselves.

The short answer is culture. Americans do it for themselves, Japanese do it for the group.

I was baffled the other day to learn that so many people in a PF treat loot as free-for-all even if you haven't levelled the job and can't equip the item.
It's a pretty big greed mentality but it's seen as "the norm".. So it's a cultural difference for sure.

[KaivaC]

I was baffled the other day to learn that so many people in a PF treat loot as free-for-all even if you haven't levelled the job and can't equip the item.
It's a pretty big greed mentality but it's seen as "the norm".. So it's a cultural difference for sure.

To be fair, the option is called 'Greed' for a reason. Though I mostly do it if I need the gear for an alt job, I know others will greed for seals or desynth. What's wrong with that?

[Altena]

To be fair, the option is called 'Greed' for a reason. Though I mostly do it if I need the gear for an alt job, I know others will greed for seals or desynth. What's wrong with that?

Seals and stuff in a dungeon or whatever? Totally fine.. DF? Yeah FFA..

A Byakko farming run or Sigma Savage formed through PF for the purpose of gearing up main/alt jobs? Yeah nah.. Not really that cool.
Nothing wrong with lotting on something in high-end content if you can equip it. But beyond that, it's purely greedy and shows really poor etiquette, to lot on high-end gear that you can't equip.
However that's "the norm" so I am not going to fight against the grain here. But I don't see it as being a decent human.

Just further shows the cultural differences, and was the reason I brought it up in my post to begin with.

[KaivaC]

snip

Again, the option is called greed for a reason. Unless arrangements were already made prior to pulling the boss, this is not bad etiquette, no matter how much you repeat yourself. If somebody wants a piece of gear, speak up and ask. That's proper etiquette. Now if the other members of the party say no, that's something else. How are you equating a literal greed option to being a decent human? That's a ridiculous stretch, and I've made some crazy stretches before on the forums.

if I want the SMN tome in Byakko, and I'm going in as DRG because that's my only 340 job, then yeah, I'm gonna greed on SMN because I need it for that job. Instead of assuming, I will speak up and ask for others not to draw on it.

[Altena]

Again, the option is called greed for a reason. Unless arrangements were already made prior to pulling the boss, this is not bad etiquette, no matter how much you repeat yourself. If somebody wants a piece of gear, speak up and ask. That's proper etiquette. Now if the other members of the party say no, that's something else. How are you equating a literal greed option to being a decent human? That's a ridiculous stretch, and I've made some crazy stretches before on the forums.

It actually really is lol.. You can't even trade Byakko weapons and Sigma gear in for seals yet, can you? What use do you have for them? What are you actually lotting on them for? To lower your inventory space by one? Why would you lot on something that has no use to you?
It absolutely is called "Greed", doesn't mean that you should use it to lot against someone who can actually use it.

I mean do you not know what etiquette actually means? Etiquette is often unspoken, and dictates what is considered polite. If you don't think "Oh this weapon or item is relevent for those who can actually use it at the moment, I am going to pass to allow those who can actually use it" is not the proper way to be polite, then I don't know what to tell you..
However I don't expect people to follow the oldschool etiquette since it has obviously changed over the years. I am just using this very example (again) to highlight part of the OP's observation as to the greedy mentality of the NA culture.

if I want the SMN tome in Byakko, and I'm going in as DRG because that's my only 340 job, then yeah, I'm gonna greed on SMN because I need it for that job. Instead of assuming, I will speak up and ask for others not to draw on it.

Good for you. However how much nicer would it be if you had faith in humanity and those that cannot actually use the item for anything currently, to just pass instead?
That is my entire point.

I am not refuting that what you are saying is considered normal behaviour. I am saying that it is poor etiquette (which is valid) and it is purely a greed mentality that is brought on by cultural influences.
And you not thinking it is poor etiquette is part of my entire point. NA culture doesn't see greed mentality as bad.

[Miste]

I was baffled the other day to learn that so many people in a PF treat loot as free-for-all even if you haven't levelled the job and can't equip the item.
It's a pretty big greed mentality but it's seen as "the norm".. So it's a cultural difference for sure.

You said right in your own post though why it is the norm? It's because it was just free-for-all. It's just using the system the game has in place instead of the hassle of making rules since some people simply don't care if people greed on whatever.

I mean I personally don't roll on stuff I can't use, but if there were no rules about the loot and it is simply default rules of n>g then I accepted those rules when I joined the PF? How can I be upset or call the others "greedy" if they do roll on something?

If someone wants something specific they can ask for it and honestly most times I see this happen people pass unless they were also capable of using that same item and wanted it as well.

I mean how can you call that "greed mentality" when you don't ask for what you want from the other people or ask the PF group for the specific drop you are going after to see if they will pass if they can't use it? It is sort of like calling people greedy, but...you wouldn't know if they were since you didn't ask. They might have happily passed it if they knew someone else wanted it as a kind gesture.

In the end though it is the leader's PF and they kinda get to say what the loot rules are. If you prefer different loot rules you are free to make your own PF where it stipulates "only greed if you can use it".

It's like a public park with no real rules about how long you can use the playground equipment and you and your 3 friends are using the 4 available swings and chatting and swinging and others are using other stuff on the playground.

Then one comes over 5 mins later and screams at you all for being "greedy" because they wanted a swing....but you and your friends are like "if you had asked we would have shared with you we didn't know you wanted one" so these 4 friends were actually not greedy people they just didn't know that they wanted a swing when they never said anything or asked if they could use one.

[Altena]

You said right in your own post though why it is the norm? It's because it was just free-for-all. It's just using the system the game has in place instead of the hassle of making rules since some people simply don't care if people greed on whatever.

I mean I personally don't roll on stuff I can't use, but if there were no rules about the loot and it is simply default rules of n>g then I accepted those rules when I joined the PF? How can I be upset or call the others "greedy" if they do roll on something?

There is a big difference between hard-wired rules and etiquette.
Look at it this way... There is a jar of 10 cookies on the table at work, and there are 10 people in the office. The sign on the jar says "help yourself to one or two".
Do you take one? Or do you take two? I mean the rules allow you to take two, but if you take two there won't be enough for everyone in the office.


Etiquette 101... Same idea as greed.. Just because you can, doesn't mean you "should".

If someone wants something specific they can ask for it and honestly most times I see this happen people pass unless they were also capable of using that same item and wanted it as well.

Or you could just be a decent human (like yourself) and pass it if you can't use it, and skip the whole thing.. I mean even if you ask, there are likely people that will still lot who can't use it. That is the culture, and the whole point of my example.

I mean how can you call that "greed mentality" when you don't ask for what you want from the other people or ask the PF group for the specific drop you are going after to see if they will pass if they can't use it? It is sort of like calling people greedy, but...you wouldn't know if they were since you didn't ask. They might have happily passed it if they knew someone else wanted it as a kind gesture.

"You can't use it for any reason at all currently. Yet you lot on it."
Yes that is a greed mentality.

In the end though it is the leader's PF and they kinda get to say what the loot rules are. If you prefer different loot rules you are free to make your own PF where it stipulates "only greed if you can use it".

It's like a public park with no real rules about how long you can use the playground equipment and you and your 3 friends are using the 4 available swings and chatting and swinging and others are using other stuff on the playground.

Then one comes over 5 mins later and screams at you all for being "greedy" because they wanted a swing....but you and your friends are like "if you had asked we would have shared with you we didn't know you wanted one" so these 4 friends were actually not greedy people they just didn't know that they wanted a swing when they never said anything or asked if they could use one.

Or you could read the surroundings and understand that others may want to use the equipment. This happens at the gym a lot, and it is actually bad etiquette to hold up a piece of equipment by sitting there and chatting etc. It's actually written rules at some gyms... Bad example if you're trying to prove a point here.

But my opinion is the unpopular one (these days). It honestly wasn't like this in the early days of this game from my experience.. And 1.0? That's a totally different story as well - especially considering there wasn't even a Need / Greed system in place and it was purely down to a single random. I accept that, and I am not in some twisted belief that I can fight the mentality. I am just highlighting that the culture of the game has changed.

[Miste]

There is a big difference between hard-wired rules and etiquette.
Look at it this way... There is a jar of 10 cookies on the table at work, and there are 10 people in the office. The sign on the jar says "help yourself to one or two".
Do you take one? Or do you take two? I mean the rules allow you to take two, but if you take two there won't be enough for everyone in the office.

This example can't really equate to the loot system in game. No EX fight or Savage fight drops 8 things from the chests one for each member. So "sharing" so to speak so that every member gets at least 1 thing from each clear is not possible.

Nor is the chest loot table static as in "every member gets 1 cookie" since fights have pretty big loot tables. It doesn't drop just cookies and some people don't need or want cookies, but maybe want or need a lollipop instead.

The only loot that is static like "everyone gets one cookie" is the token system, which does give each member their cookie with no competition.

Or you could just be a decent human (like yourself) and pass it if you can't use it, and skip the whole thing.. I mean even if you ask, there are likely people that will still lot who can't use it. That is the culture, and the whole point of my example.

The idea of "you can't use it" is subjective though. I do agree for myself personally if someone who can use the item versus someone who can't I think it would be nice if they passed, but if they don't I don't judge them over it.

Simple fact is that jump potions exist and it can take as little as a few days to get a job to 70. Like oh that guy rolled on NIN weapons but their NIN is only 65? He could have that at 70 possibly less than 2 days. Even someone without the job unlocked or level 1 could jump potion it and be 70 very quickly.

"You can't use it for any reason at all currently. Yet you lot on it."
Yes that is a greed mentality.

Future use is a valid reason to roll on things imo though. Sure that one person might not have NIN at 70 yet, but if it is his next job to 70 and he wants it he was present in the fight and did the work just like everyone else in order to clear the fight then he has the right to roll. UNLESS there were specific loot rules set by the group. If not then I don't see how they did anything wrong.

Or you could read the surroundings and understand that others may want to use the equipment. This happens at the gym a lot, and it is actually bad etiquette to hold up a piece of equipment by sitting there and chatting etc. It's actually written rules at some gyms... Bad example if you're trying to prove a point here.

That's the problem about online games though. You can't "read the surroundings" since there is no body language or other signs to use to pinpoint desire or need; you simply only have your chat functions to declare what your desires are. There won't be anything to read unless someone speaks up and types out something.

That is why I specifically said that the person came over and implied it was kind of out of no where (maybe I should have clarified that better) and accused the people on the swings as greedy and specifically mentioned no other outside signals that they wanted a swing IE: body language, since that doesn't exist in-game. If the person had been hanging around near the swings and constantly watching the swings or seemed to be "waiting" their turn then yes one of 4 friends could say "are you waiting for a swing? if you want one i'll get off"

But such body language or obvious attention paid to the swings in my example cannot be translated into online games through readable body language. Which is again why I had my example as a very simple one with the idea of the other person coming over kind of out of nowhere (IE: suddenly) and how I never mentioned that they were near the swings or seemed like they were paying attention to the swings at all. The 4 friends would not have been able to decipher or notice any kind of body language if the other person was so far away and were ignoring the swings.

As for the odd comment about chatting ...I said they were chatting and swinging since both are possible simultaneously. They were actively using the swings. So I don't know why you thought they were sitting unmoving and only chatting? I didn't say that so my point is generally pretty concise.

[Altena]

Snip

Look, you sound like you're starting to get a bit triggered so I will wrap this up.

You can't equip it.
You can't turn it into seals.
Once you zone out of the instance.. The only thing you can do is move it around your inventory.

There is nothing subjective about "you can't use it" and "it means nothing to you but inventory +1".
Why lot it? Literally what is the reason to have it in your inventory, for no other reason than the fact the person lotting it is greedy and wants it for the sake of having it.
Yes that is greed mentality.
That is the current culture.
That is what this whole thread is about. (Or did we forget the OP's actual topic?)

I am not talking about DF dungeon rubbish, old primals, or any irrelevant content, where the gear is not close to max item level.
Basically if you can trade it in for seals = free game. I totally get that and I am totally on board with that. I do it myself actually.

However there is literally NO reason for someone to have it in their inventory if it is gear from current content that is being farmed for the purpose of gearing up.
In other words - if you can't use it for gear on your currently level capped jobs, then you just shouldn't lot it.
As for jobs that are "being levelled" or are "not far from cap".. Look I am not even worried about that. Sure, go ahead.. You have very-near-future plans to equip and use it. That's totally fine..

But that's not what people do.
They lot it because they can, and they want it because they don't have it.
Greed mentality.

I was watching a streamer the other week (won't name and shame obviously) who was doing Byakko with a few viewers.
The streamer won the greed lot on a weapon and joked in the steam with a really cheeky smile.. "Oh woops, I actually won it. I guess I might level SMN at some point then har har (not)"..
The viewer that was in the party with them plays SMN and lost the lot to them.
That viewer was obviously pretty ticked off, and vocalised that they could have used it.
This is just one tiny example of why it's just such rubbish etiquette to greed lot everything they can.

I am not fighting against it. I am just highlighting what's bad about it, and the fact that it's the current culture in this game on the NA community side.
I join less and less PFs these days, and do less and less content because I don't like the public community's etiquette, and generally stick to playing with friends, many of which have similar feelings about loot to me.

I will make enemies by saying this but a big part of the reason you think it is "ok" is due to the fact that you are part of that NA culture.
I am not saying the culture I am apart of is fantastic either - it has its quirks..
Culture is basically the collective group of ideas and values. The "Greed lots are FFA" mentality is just one thing that's part of that culture.
A big part of why you don't think it's that bad, is because you belong to that culture.

/the end.