I'm not sure I can do this again.

[Kyuuen]

WoW's expansions are vastly different from one another with whole new ways of playing each time.

As someone who still occasionally plays WoW; no it has not.

The only things WoW can attest to doing differently are special random BG's; one per week, (Snow Blind (Arathi Basin), Gravity loss/Lapse (Storm's Eye?)) and battlegrounds like them and Mythic keystones which changes certain stat variables for a given dungeon run, in which both of those were added in Legion. The last thing they added to the game which changed things up were open world Battleground PvP zones (Winter Grasp and the failed monstrosity from WoD). And I suppose pet battles, if you find that interesting. And I forgot the artifact/relic weapon system for Legion, but that's gone come next x-pac.

The leveling formula is largely unchanged.
The dungeon formula is largely unchanged.
The raiding formula is largely unchanged.
The PvP formula is largely unchanged.
Crafting/gathering is largely unchanged.

The only thing that really changes are the themes of the expansion.

[KaldeaSahaline]

As someone who still occasionally plays WoW; no it has not.

The leveling formula is largely unchanged.
The dungeon formula is largely unchanged.
The raiding formula is largely unchanged.
The PvP formula is largely unchanged.
Crafting/gathering is largely unchanged.

The only thing that really changes are the themes of the expansion.

First let me preface that I love both games and actively play both pending the patch. However, you're not being very fair:

The leveling formula is largely unchanged.

Except they added zone scaling this expac, and they've just recently (in a patch mind you) expanded that to the entire world, one that is fairly large. Not to mention prior to this, they've previously shaken up leveling design with heirlooms etc.

The dungeon formula is largely unchanged.

You're marginalizing the depth and success to the Mythic+ system here. It's the gold standard for dungeon design frankly. FF14 desperately needs SOMETHING to compete with it, as dungeon content in FF14 is beyond stagnant.

The raiding formula is largely unchanged.

Very true currently, but you're also not taking into consideration how much it has evolved/changed over the years. Flex is an absolute godsend for the casual community.
To say that the formula hasn't changed when it's gone from massive sizes with little to no mechanics, to actual mechanics with multiple difficulties and then the ability to flex so no one is left out?

The PvP formula is largely unchanged.

I'm not as well versed in PVP so my insight here is considerably less so. I don't care for PVP in either of these games (BNS was king for that IMO). They added templates and completely separated pve from pvp. That's a pretty big change. The brawls and stuff are pretty minor though IMO.

Crafting/gathering is largely unchanged.

Agreed. They changed professions over the years, but the system is still one of the weaker systems out there. The gathering bit isn't bad, but it's not nearly the standard their other systems are.

[Kyuuen]

First let me preface that I love both games and actively play both pending the patch. However, you're not being very fair:

Same.. kind of. I've grown kind of neutral towards WoW, but it's still that one addiction I can't kick.

Except they added zone scaling this expac, and they've just recently (in a patch mind you) expanded that to the entire world, one that is fairly large. Not to mention prior to this, they've previously shaken up leveling design with heirlooms etc.

The formula wasn't really changed here though, the feel of it most definitely has been improved no argument, but I wouldn't necessarily say the formula has changed. It's still the MMO standard tried and true receive quest, fulfill quest, turn in quest, receive rewards.

You're marginalizing the depth and success to the Mythic+ system here. It's the gold standard for dungeon design frankly. FF14 desperately needs SOMETHING to compete with it, as dungeon content in FF14 is beyond stagnant.

I'll give you that one. It's largely a feature I don't use due to having to use Party Finder instead of LFD. I simply don't like putting up with peoples ridiculous requirements such as needing certain addons or unreasonable ilvl expectations. So I avoided this system as a whole.

Very true currently, but you're also not taking into consideration how much it has evolved/changed over the years. Flex is an absolute godsend for the casual community.
To say that the formula hasn't changed when it's gone from massive sizes with little to no mechanics, to actual mechanics with multiple difficulties and then the ability to flex so no one is left out?

I dunno, I'll give you the flex raid part, but at the same time it feels like they don't try to break the mold enough. Sure there's a few fights throughout WoW that you can claim to have done this such as Malygos, healing the green drake in ICC, Arthas kill mechanic which has been used twice now considering Argus, Flame Leviathan, etc. Perhaps it's more of a time thing in looking back at all the raids and what's been done. But personally WoW's raids have felt kind of stale to me as of late. XIV's dev team seems to strike a balance in trying something new here and there to break up the monotony of mechanics such as Cruise Chasers timed event and Byakko's falling mechanic.

I'm not as well versed in PVP so my insight here is considerably less so. I don't care for PVP in either of these games (BNS was king for that IMO). They added templates and completely separated pve from pvp. That's a pretty big change. The brawls and stuff are pretty minor though IMO.

Them having given us separate tree's I can't give you though. That's something people have been clamoring for since WotLK, and should have been done sooner simply for balancing reasons. I remember there being specs purely for PvE, specs for PvP, specs that were crap in both, and specs that were amazing in both, simply due to balancing reasons. Now there's a certain balance within reason.

[KaldeaSahaline]

The formula wasn't really changed here though, the feel of it most definitely has been improved no argument, but I wouldn't necessarily say the formula has changed. It's still the MMO standard tried and true receive quest, fulfill quest, turn in quest, receive rewards.

I mean WoW already let you level strictly via dungeons (granted the new scaling tech gutted dungeon xp, so that option is not very good now). It let you level exclusively through PVP if you wanted. You could in theory grind mobs all day long. You've had options for a long time. You didn't HAVE to quest.

More importantly though, do you have any insight/ideas into how the leveling formula could be shaken up/improved? I'd be more interested in hearing about that than discussing the semantics as to what does/doesn't qualify as a formula change.

I'll give you that one. It's largely a feature I don't use due to having to use Party Finder instead of LFD. I simply don't like putting up with peoples ridiculous requirements such as needing certain addons or unreasonable ilvl expectations. So I avoided this system as a whole.

You're looking at it the wrong way. If I am ilvl 970 and doing a +15, I'm going to set it to people around my ilvl. I'm not going to set it to 910 even though they could easily clear the +15. There's no reason too when I have a staggering list of 960+ candidates trying to get in my party.

What addons are you referencing for M+? I've never seen or heard of anyone requiring specific addons and I acquired KSM long before NH dropped.

Take your own Keystone (you can get one from a regular DF'able Mythic dungeon) and make your own party and get other like geared/minded players and have a blast. See how high you can take the key.

Mythic + has hands down supplied me with some of the most rewarding experiences in my MMO career (10+ years, even as a top 20 US raider for a portion of it). You're doing yourself a disservice by not experiencing it. I'm alliance on NA Stormrage if you wanted to group up.

I dunno, I'll give you the flex raid part, but at the same time it feels like they don't try to break the mold enough. Sure there's a few fights throughout WoW that you can claim to have done this such as Malygos, healing the green drake in ICC, Arthas kill mechanic which has been used twice now considering Argus, Flame Leviathan, etc. Perhaps it's more of a time thing in looking back at all the raids and what's been done. But personally WoW's raids have felt kind of stale to me as of late. XIV's dev team seems to strike a balance in trying something new here and there to break up the monotony of mechanics such as Cruise Chasers timed event and Byakko's falling mechanic.

It depends on what we consider breaking the mold. By your examples, it appears that unconventional mechanics are what dictate your consideration. That's fair. Gimmicky encounters can be cool, but if they're overused they lose a lot of what makes them fun.

That said, I agree that WoW encounters have been a bit stale lately. In ABN, I really wasn't impressed with any of the bosses until Coven, and it ended with Coven. I took a break through ToS, and only came in like twice to full clear it with old guild for fun so I don't want to comment on it as I didn't progress it. NH had a few good fights. Elisande, Spellblade, and Botanist get credit for being fun fights. ToV Odyn & Helya were both good fights (I HATED Helya, but that's because I had shit mobility). EN sucked. I actually liked Nythendra the best out of all of them haha. The mind control + rot stacks was a really neat mechanic interaction.

[Shurrikhan]

It depends on what we consider breaking the mold. By your examples, it appears that unconventional mechanics are what dictate your consideration. That's fair. Gimmicky encounters can be cool, but if they're overused they lose a lot of what makes them fun.

And heck, "gimmicks-based" has often enough been an insult in itself, in using the term "gimmick" as a negatively-seen form of a mechanic, such as one which disallows manipulation, control, or mastery, or has negative synergy or cohesion with the surrounding fight. Though new mechanics are generally what can make a fight outstanding in its day, there a many, many ways mechanics can go wrong (or turn into "gimmicks" as per the derogatory term).

More importantly though, do you have any insight/ideas into how the leveling formula could be shaken up/improved? I'd be more interested in hearing about that than discussing the semantics as to what does/doesn't qualify as a formula change.

This is what I'd love to hear more from the community about in general. At what point in abstraction is something new actually "new". I set pretty high standards, myself, but I've never been able to hear more than vague implications or counterexamples from most XIV players, and it therefore becomes hard for me to really broach any ideas of my own.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not as well versed in PVP so my insight here is considerably less so. I don't care for PVP in either of these games (BNS was king for that IMO). They added templates and completely separated pve from pvp. That's a pretty big change. The brawls and stuff are pretty minor though IMO.

This. I'd argue it wasn't all for the best, but Legion brought large changes to PvP as well. Imagine the Stormblood change, before Stormblood, but without all the over-simplifying. (E.g. gear doesn't barely matters; secondary stats are pre-optimized; and there are now PvP-specific talents atop the regular ones.)

Agreed. They changed professions over the years, but the system is still one of the weaker systems out there. The gathering bit isn't bad, but it's not nearly the standard their other systems are.

And that's slated for massive reform in BFA. Little to no vertical progression, far more horizontal progression. If you've got the mats for it, you can progress any category of crafting, from Dark Iron designs to Iron Horde battlearmor to Naga mail, etc., etc.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I can pretty well sculpt out an idea of your thoughts on it at this point, but I don't think I've heard explicitly what makes something "new" from you yet. Ambiguous question context aside, though, I suspect our answers will be fairly close(?).

My standards aren't super high. Looking at FF14. I would consider Rival Wings "new". Even though it is just PVP content, it is drastically different than the norm and not just a marked "improvement". I would include Squadron dungeons in this as well.

Looking at WoW, I'd classify the artifact weapons as something new even though they can be boiled down to merely just weapons. I'd classify Mythic + as new, even though it's just dungeons.

To me there has to be fairly robust/unique systems newly built to something to be considered new.

Looking at FF14 again, I think they really dropped the ball on "side content".

I look at the gold saucer and I cry everytime. I envision in my head a version of chocobo racing that would be robust enough to be its own game, BUT by putting it in FF14 you open a fantastic world for people to get lost in and be a part of.

There's a game called Crash Team Racing that I have extraordinarily fond memories of. I would have literally copy pasted the mechanics out of that game into this version of Chocobo racing. Maybe I'll make a new thread on that.

I even had a fairly robust "battle arena" concept that would have been cool for light and full parties to mess around with when things are slow, yet everytime I see GS I just sigh at how much of a waste it was. It could have been the cool place to hang out that contained a ton of non-standard content forms for people to mess with when stuffs slow.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Mythic+ certainly would meet my definition for "new"; it created whole new sectors of gameplay, communities, -between-casual-and-hardcore stratums, time allotments, and in a way whole new paradigms over what content ought to be like.

Squadron dungeons may too, depending on how extensive the resultant changes end up at the end of its development path. If what we have now is as far as they go... then I'm not entirely sure.

Rival Wings is likewise borderline for me; though it was a new combat mode, it actually did very little to change the mindset or meta of PvP, apart from making healers seem even stronger. The difference between Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin, for instance, seems both far deeper and far more apparent than any form of XIV PvP vs. Rival Wings.

I'm judging a bit more critically than I normally would in game, though; even if not exactly what I'd call "new" I can frequently be pleased by all those things I'd here call borderline, at least in terms of their newness. It'll be their actual execution that will matter most to me. My issue with GS when in game, for instance, isn't that it doesn't allow for anything new: it's that what has been provided within is feels inferior to what almost anyone could seemingly imagine with a bit of time and effort -- it often feels like merely a token gesture rather than an earnest attempt at anything. It's almost as if they're too hung up on the idea of creating "new side-content" and not enough on making whatever content they add actually worthwhile.

Taken as a definition, though, my standards for "newness" are probably, as I'd said, abnormally high. For me, for something to be "new" requires not only that it be different, but that it should point at a new or more fleshed out direction for the game; it should show that the game is in growth. That ends up a largely retroactive opinion if production is kept behind tight lips, but I'll tend to make my assumption and revoke it later if need be.

That's not to say that something should feel free to outgrow or leave things obsolete. If so, those things become unable to contribute to what remains; it'd be like a canopy without a trunk. Moreover it'd quickly end up wasted development time. No, growth must extend from what's there towards some goal which will then be foundation for another, and so forth. Only then does something new connote a new extent for the game.