Thread: Throwing the tome: 4.2 Summoner Feedback

Originally Posted by Kurando

...To be honest Contagion isn't there just to boost your pet's damage, yes it benefits from it but yourself and the party get so much more out of it. What you suggest it like asking RDM to have all insta-casts after using Embolden because it benefits from increased Magic damage, that would be silly. ... Though just like a couple of the Eos skills they are abilities and not spells, thus they have to balanced in someway to prevent constant uptime.

Exactly, Contagion is a raid buff, that's why it shouldn't be so inconsistent with the timing that you can end up delaying it up to 15 seconds because of missing the small window when your pet actually takes commands. Ifrit has an instant basic attack, which makes him and his abilities much more responsive to use, because he doesn't have a long dead time when no commands are accepted. All pets should work similarly. Either that or make sure that all pet commands queue properly regardless of what the pet is doing at the given time.

Your RDM example misses the mark. The problem with Contagion is more akin to Embolden not going off 70% of the time because of arbitrary reasons.

If the pet skills are instant, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a recast timer. I don't know what you're on about with the Eos example.

Most probably he meant that 100% uptime pet exploit back in HW - the time Eos became way more popular than Selene was used to be. U were simply able to cancel pet cds with resummoning them - to extend or reuse petbuffs immiditly.

Schs were so strong with Eos buffs that they were able to main/soloheal nearly every content using that exploit with good mp management

Honestly I keep both Garuda and Ifrit on Sic because I must being viewing their buffs differently. They are there to buff the party, not myself.
SCH do have it worse though because Eos's has some nice healing buff when used in conjunction with SCH's healing.

I do wish they would swap Garuda movement AI. I need Garuda to follow me around for Devotion buff.

P.S. I can't end this thread without laughing at DoTs are worthless. They make up 1/5 to 1/4 the SMN dps.

As someone whos played SMN since 2.0.....LEAVE IT ALONE

No its not perfect, no class truly is.

I suffered through the class from its worst days till now. While tweaks would be nice, when you nail your timing on SMN it feels like a dream. It does not need the complete overhaul you seem to think it does. (Though I would prefer them unnerfing the AOE's they just nerfed) The only thing that does, are the pets, which really have been an issue since 2.0. But they wont change them now. They clearly don't see an issue with them, even with Bahamut that freaks when you moves. I main SMN as DPS and love the class.

Arcanist pets have always clunky, especially ones with cast times. There is not much you can do if the pet's main action queue has a cast time such as Wind Blade or Embrace. The pet AI will always queue Embrace/Wind Blade so you have to spam the move several time in succession before it goes off. If you have high latency, the pet responsiveness can feel worse due to net-code rollbacks.

Steady/Guard macros can work with instant cast pet abilities and many good Scholars use them, but they can be a DPS loss for Summoner since you are interrupting Wind Blade (if using Garuda). Avoid using Steady/Guard macros for pet actions with cast times like Whispering Dawn.

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly I keep both Garuda and Ifrit on Sic because I must being viewing their buffs differently. They are there to buff the party, not myself.

Garuda's Contagion is a magic vuln buff, and although they buff the party, it mostly buffs the Summoner due to most players not being able to make use of it beyond the healer(s) or the SMN themselves... or a potential RDM or BLM. That said, the two abilities have different timers, so it's not a big deal to switch between Ifrit and Garuda for full coverage. Just a minor nitpick.

Originally Posted by Dyvid

I do wish they would swap Garuda movement AI. I need Garuda to follow me around for Devotion buff.

If only Garuda could move and cast though.

Originally Posted by Dyvid

P.S. I can't end this thread without laughing at DoTs are worthless. They make up 1/5 to 1/4 the SMN dps.

And that's part of why I thought the OP was absurd at first/

For the last time, learn to read. He did not say they don't do a big chunk of our damage, he said those 20% could be given back in ruin potency, we wouldn't even see it because of how little we INTERACT with our dots. Fester and that's it, no more to the kit (I don't want to hear the name bane since SB launch )

Coming off a bit harsh but starting to get annoying

Originally Posted by Karshan

For the last time, learn to read. He did not say they don't do a big chunk of our damage, he said those 20% could be given back in ruin potency, we wouldn't even see it because of how little we INTERACT with our dots. Fester and that's it, no more to the kit (I don't want to hear the name bane since SB launch )

Coming off a bit harsh but starting to get annoying

You are right and wrong.

DoTs have become so deemphasized since Stormblood they might as well not even exist. With the loss of Contagion, nothing in your boss kit interacts with any of your debuffs. With the change of Fester to always give Dreadwyrm Aether, they don't even matter to your basic gameplay rotation anymore. You could literally drop DoTs and go through your entire Trance and Bahamut rotation, unimpeded. It is nothing but invisible damage now.

Italics for your interpretation's support and bold for mine and Dyvid's. If you could literally drop DoTs and go unimpeded, it would imply that Fester would still do its 300 potency on its target whether or not there's DoTs on the target or not. Of course, that would be a stupid idea, since Tri-Disaster applies those DoTs plus Ruination and you Fester using that.

Indeed. They don't matter to gameplay, only to DPS. You will lose 33 + 15 pps (Dots + Festers) which is tremendous, but your cycle is not affected anymore by not having them. Like at all. Well of course one change will be not using them, but you understand by no impact he means we still DWT, we still Bahamut, it’s just less damage (maybe not even less WW, gotta check just for the record if WW are triggered by a dotless fester).

He never said those 20% (+10% for fester let’s keep the full record) were nonexistent in the sense they are not 30% of our damage. What he meant is : well, no more c…ycle block.

While it does lower skill ceiling, it’s not at all the kind of limitations removal or simplification we asked for.

Still, 8 months in, got used to the wheel thing yet it STILL does feel clunky at times to not be able to hit AF whenever. It stresses me out to need kind of a checklist “ok can I enter DWT” or “ok can I Bahamut ?” every once in a while.

It’s maybe 10% of the time, but it’s 10% too many for a job that had once a prettier flow in HS. The 15 second timers were NEVER a problem in raids, only in dungeons between packs if your tank was a slug. You could hit AF, hit fester every 10 seconds, or 15, or wait 45 seconds, do 2 F 1 P in ten seconds enter trance and hit AF…

The window is reduced from 60 seconds for stacks expenditure then 15 seconds for trance activation to a 40 seconds window of stacks expenditure and DWT right after because if not you have to choose between shortening the trance or leaving AF on CD.
Plus changing DWT timing messes up with Dot clipping with the reset of TriD, so it’s impossible to lose uptime BUT changes everything to your reflexes about clipping and DOT optimization.

SB SMN feels ok on a dummy (sorta), but come to change your timings because of the fight and boy it becomes a messy control tower.