Idea: Class split idea for all jobs

[HyoMinPark]

The developer team has already stated they will never do another job split like they did with SMN/SCH.

I say we need to quit speaking on behalf of the game developers. We are the consumers and we should ask what we want for instead of just shooting down other requests because "Game designers said it won't happen".

Except with regards to job splits, the developers have said repeatedly they had a lot of issues with the SMN/SCH split, and how hard it was to balance the two. It will never happen again, because they literally said so.

[Shurrikhan]

Except with regards to job splits, the developers have said repeatedly they had a lot of issues with the SMN/SCH split, and how hard it was to balance the two. It will never happen again, because they literally said so.

This is sadly true. The logic to this is like complaining that a paper document wasn't sufficiently waterproof when left in a sink, so we should stop using paper altogether, but they have absolutely said that based on the SMN/SCH's failure (as per its blatantly errant) execution, never again will we see a job split.

RIP all possible decent implementations -- numerous were your lore- and mechanics-cohesive possibilities.

Pointing at games like WoW or Rift having many specs is ridiculous because WoW nearly destroyed the entire concept of specialization.

This is patently false. WoW's specialization distinction has only increased over the years. The newest expansion will be the first turn away from increased distinction, and only to a minor extent. What has diminished is solely hybridization via talents, and even that isn't true of all specs.

[Sylvain]

This is patently false. WoW's specialization distinction has only increased over the years. The newest expansion will be the first turn away from increased distinction, and only to a minor extent. What has diminished is solely hybridization via talents, and even that isn't true of all specs.

I putted it wrongly.
What i meant was, back in WoW vanilla/bc, every class had plenty of core skill in commons that would the be buffed through the talent tree which would give access to some unique talents.


In Vanilla,BC and Wotlk to some extent, a Fire mage and frost mage had almost exactly the same skills. (add the 2-3 special one you would get from the talent tree). The only thing making them still "mages" are blink, iceblock, cs, polymorph and a few other spells.
My point was that beside the core spell they would spams, class were still pretty much identical until Wotlk.(Spamming 120 frostbolt is roughly the same as spamming 120 fireball in wow vanilla)

Now, spec are a button choice in the talent window. You press what spec you'll be and every single skill not tied to that spec is removed / changed. You specialise further with the new talent system (which I really like). For instance, if you're fire you no longer have access to Blizzard and Arcane Nova.

So what I meant by "destroying" specialisation is that you do not really specialise anymore like you used to. WoW's system took the SMN/SCH root in some sens. You choose your "spec" and then every thing is given to you without you making any choice regarding your core gameplay.

In WoW, a Mage is still a mage because they all have those same useful skills, either baseline or through talents such as Blink, Counterspell, Iceblock, Frostnova, Mirror Image, Teleport.
In DarkSoul, by putting points into specific stats and seeking magic/ other items, I specialise my character over time. But everything he could do at lv 15, I can still do it at 50. I didn't loose any ability. I just expanded what I can do.
In FF14. You specliase nothing, you choose wether you use the SCH or SMN job crystal and that's it. All your spell slowly mutate to a new form until there's nothing in common.

So we may call it specialisation or wathever. But I find WoW's or FF14's current system very different from any game where you can actively specialise yourself such as Path of Exil, even Diablo, WoW's vanilla,Rift etc.


Anyway, in the end I don't really see the point. It's just much more work from SE to end up with the exact same thing as it if was a regular job you unlock.

and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they actually split SCH and SMN and make SCH a stand alone job that you unlock at lv 30 at some point.

I am a 1.0 player, and I liked it back then even if it had a lot of flaws. Personally, I felt a bit left out the moment the game was so much streamlined that it removed any kind of thought behind how you'd "build" your character, wether by its skills or its gear.
At that point, I think the game would be better if it removed every trace of the old system to flourish in its new identity than keep it for the sake of nostalgia and do nothing with it.

This is exactly why I say there is no point requesting the class splitting. Before it could make sens when you could actively build your character.
Now you can't. The only choice you have are the lame cross action skills and what job crystal you use for a single class.
Making new job split from class would require a lot of work to end up with the exact same result as if you had unlocked a stand alone job.

They also said they will remove the class system at some point. My guess is that you'll start as the class that will simply evolve once you've completed the quest lv 30.
And SCH could very easily be turned into its own unique job without a base class.

[Shurrikhan]

I putted it wrongly.
What i meant was, back in WoW vanilla/bc, every class had plenty of core skill in commons that would the be buffed through the talent tree which would give access to some unique talents.

Ahh, gotcha. I was just confused in that in WoW, cross-talents are precisely the opposite of what the game calls "specialization", and thus distinction between specializations has only increased even as the detail permitted in player choice as to how -- or, to what extent -- they are specialized (this much of this, this bit of that, etc.) has decreased.

There are no longer Mages in WoW, for instance. There are only Frost Mages, Fire Mages, and Arcane Mages. By the time you reach even level 30, the parts shared between specializations are absolutely minimal. If you take Fire, you lose access to Frost and Arcane, and vice versa. There is no generalist option. And thus Fire, Frost, and Arcane as a bank of spells cannot well differentiate themselves since they all need access at least to a benchmark amount of ST and AoE burst, sustain, and CC. Instead, they are differed through buttonflow or pacing. And yet by WoW's definition, that is increased specialization, even if it has less player choice than previously to actually choose this over that, because the specializations are... more specialized, with less shared territory. You simply get three flavors of the same thing, making each more competitive across a given spread of content, but largely out of the player's hand. (The new talent systems do at least give back a bit of buttonflow adjustment, though, especially now that BFA is no longer forcing you to specialize between AoE, cleave, or ST with each mutually exclusive set of talent choices but instead your choice of AoE in one row, choice of cleave in another, and of ST in yet another -- each their own -- etc.)

This is exactly why I say there is no point requesting the class splitting. Before it could make sens when you could actively build your character.
Now you can't. The only choice you have are the lame cross action skills and what job crystal you use for a single class.

While I, too, wish we'd gone the route of building your own character, I don't think the fact that that possibility has come and gone means that classes will never have a place in design, nor certainly that they'll never make sense. Lore-wise, starting at level 1 as a member of an, essentially, secret order to which you've never been introduced doesn't make sense. Nor does tailoring a weapon to a job for whom the weapon is merely tangential. Dragon skills don't inherently synergize much if at all stronger with a lance than, say, a sword. A Paladin's toolkit will desire a shield, undoubtedly, but what of its main hand? Their sense is closer to that of Tactics Advanced Jobs than any of the FFXI ones, especially given the deeply dug-in lore already in XIV.

It'd be sad if that means that classes are simply a pre-title of their respective jobs, and never granted any further core gameplay-affecting, synergetic mechanics to be possibly shared in a build-your-own sort of experience, but sensible enough given the game's current design philosophy.

[Reynhart]

This is exactly why I say there is no point requesting the class splitting. Before it could make sens when you could actively build your character.
Now you can't. The only choice you have are the lame cross action skills and what job crystal you use for a single class.

I wouldn't say there's "no point". I see the extreme streamlining as a detriment to the game so I give my advice on what could bring a little more depth to it. Wether or not they will do it is of no relevance.

If we don't express our concerns because they're convinced they're on the right path...well, FFXIV would have died back in 1.0.

Making new job split from class would require a lot of work

I'm still convinced that building upon an existing backbone is easier to balance than creating a whole new job from scratch

to end up with the exact same result as if you had unlocked a stand alone job.

As I said earlier, if leveling a DPS would give you access to a tank or a healer, you might give a shot to a role you wouldn't have leveled otherwise, so no, the overall impact on the playerbase might not be the same.

[Hasrat]

Rule #1: The customer is very rarely, if ever, right.

If there's a big enough request for McDonald's to function like Subway, it's pretty unlikely they're going to change their entire identity to satisfy that.

Just because lots of people request something doesn't make them entitled to the thing. Have you seen their responses to requests for parsers?

[Wintersandman]

Rule #1: The customer is very rarely, if ever, right.

If there's a big enough request for McDonald's to function like Subway, it's pretty unlikely they're going to change their entire identity to satisfy that.

Just because lots of people request something doesn't make them entitled to the thing. Have you seen their responses to requests for parsers?

There is so much fallacy in everything you have said. McDonald's has changed their identity many times. They used to make burgers in advance of an order and now they make them by the order. McDonalds was also very heavily focused on burgers for like FOREVER. They now have changed their model to include healthier options based on consumer demands. Comparing a sandwich shop and burger joint is a false equivalency. Subway even modified how they do sandwiches because of Quiznos. Subway never toasted their bread until Quiznos was stealing market share. If you are going to compare something don't make it so drastic.

We the consumers have been asking for a lot of things but if they strictly refuse to do it, it won't happen. There are examples of things getting changed or implemented but there are also more changes or implements that we've been asking for years that haven't gotten done.

Then continue to shut down fellow players "Because devs". How many times did we hear from Devs' "We can't add more housing or inventory space". I know I have heard it for a long time. Look we have more space, more wards (twice as many) and now even a chocobo saddlebag.

[Shurrikhan]

Then continue to shut down fellow players "Because devs". How many times did we hear from Devs' "We can't add more housing or inventory space". I know I have heard it for a long time. Look we have more space, more wards (twice as many) and now even a chocobo saddlebag.

This. We've also been told point-blank that something is either too difficult to implement (not just "for now" but indefinitely) or technically impossible only to later have it added anyways. Something like branched jobs is tangential enough to the game that they can just sit on it for the sake of stubborness if they so desire, but other examples of "it's not happening" have been reversed just fine.

[Lambdafish]

This. We've also been told point-blank that something is either too difficult to implement (not just "for now" but indefinitely) or technically impossible only to later have it added anyways. Something like branched jobs is tangential enough to the game that they can just sit on it for the sake of stubborness if they so desire, but other examples of "it's not happening" have been reversed just fine.

Ok, lets say that it is possible. What kind of resources would it take? Would we get less jobs in order to invest the development time into this? Is the payoff worth it?

While the dev team have shown that they can reverse their stances on certain issues, they have also shown that they don't really proactively design content and systems, and I don't really believe that if we were to get another split job that it would be any better.

SMN/SCH was a failed experiment that the devs didn't like, so was diadem, and it was just as bad the second time around. Hell, I'd like them to focus on making a glamour dresser that works as intended before I believe that they can reverse the split job situation.

[Shurrikhan]

While the dev team have shown that they can reverse their stances on certain issues, they have also shown that they don't really proactively design content and systems...

See, that is precisely what we shouldn't be content with -- content being implemented without forethought. That is why we had the SCH/SMN issues. That is why Diadem was a trainwreck. That is why the glamour dresser is approximately the most convoluted "solution" possible to what could have been much more simply solved.

More than wanting to see any particular issue reverted, I'd like to see XIV stop creating more left and right through the same core failings, and for the community to stop giving them a free pass after x months just because they've gotten used to the unnecessarily poor result.