Growing tired of this Stigma

[Faeon]

Not trying to start something here. I could just be ignorant of this topic.

So if a SAM pulls 6k raid DPS, and a Ninja pulls 6k raid DPS. Shouldn't that be fair?

They both achieved the same DPS amount. They just had different ways of getting there.

SAM got there by using personal DPS.

NIN got there by adding the amount of damage they provided to the group to their personal.

To me, I feel like...why should SAM be the highest DPS in the game period. Personal DPS, yes. But I feel like asking for SAM to be higher than Jobs that have their personal DPS added to their utility DPS is just asking for SAM to be the best in dps - period.

Is it not balanced if they both achieve the same goal, but have different ways of getting there?

Higher because they bring nothing to the raid, currently NIN brings smoke screen, shade and trick. That makes it super valuable in a raid while a SAM brings nothing at all. So in terms of DPS a SAM should be at the top by along shot.

[Zojha]

Higher because they bring nothing to the raid, currently NIN brings smoke screen, shade and trick.

...all of which are accounted in "Raid DPS".

Separate these two:
Personal DPS is the total amount of DPS you personally do.
Raid DPS is personal DPS plus any DPS the group as a whole gains from your utility spells.

For a person without utility spells, personal DPS equals raid DPS. For a person with utility spells, it doesn't. All that guy is saying is that the number you need to equalize is raid DPS rather than personal DPS. Which... is pretty much common sense and hopefully the balancing ideal of people.

[Faeon]

...all of which are accounted in "Raid DPS".

Separate these two:
Personal DPS is the total amount of DPS you personally do.
Raid DPS is personal DPS plus any DPS the group as a whole gains from your utility spells.

For a person without utility spells, personal DPS equals raid DPS. For a person with utility spells, it doesn't. All that guy is saying is that the number you need to equalize is raid DPS rather than personal DPS. Which... is pretty much common sense and hopefully the balancing ideal of people.

All good and well, but the player base does not care about overall DPS, that is why we have this meta everywhere nowadays.When you are clearing content the groups raid leader is not looking at the total amount that the group is doing at the top of his list, first is the tank in tank stance the whole time, is the healer dps'ing, the difference between the NIN and a DRG is a 1000 dps difference, must be the DRG he is not pulling his weight, the healer is only doing 200 dps, healer more dps please.

Do you see where this is going? I understand the point that you are trying to make.But in the end, it is the individual is what people are looking at regardless and there own interpretation of what that particular job should do. If the NIN and the SAM had the exact same dps and the exact same utilities, then it will be slightly different I reckon.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Not trying to start something here. I could just be ignorant of this topic.

So if a SAM pulls 6k raid DPS, and a Ninja pulls 6k raid DPS. Shouldn't that be fair?

They both achieved the same DPS amount. They just had different ways of getting there.

SAM got there by using personal DPS.

NIN got there by adding the amount of damage they provided to the group to their personal.

To me, I feel like...why should SAM be the highest DPS in the game period. Personal DPS, yes. But I feel like asking for SAM to be higher than Jobs that have their personal DPS added to their utility DPS is just asking for SAM to be the best in dps - period.

Is it not balanced if they both achieve the same goal, but have different ways of getting there?

No worries!

A NIN provides support outside damage with Smokescreen and Shadewalker. The former can be invaluable due to the frequency of boss aggro resets lately or WHM generating a massive amount of hate. Another factor to consider is if we swap out the SAM for a DRG, what changes? The DRG's DPS will be approximately 5,400-5,600 but the whole raid now benefits from Litany, the NIN will likely get Dragon Sight several times throughout the fight, upping their numbers and the BRD's DPS will jump 500-600 points. All this combined leads to noticeably higher raid DPS than what a SAM can offer. They can only really compete if an AST feeds cards since selfish jobs benefit more from single targets, though you usually want to avoid padding one person.

When RDM/SMN gets swapped out for MCH, that is another boost DRG offers on top of everything above (And why I think they need to do away with Piercing). Basically, SAMs have to be borderline flawless to achieve comparable numbers to jobs with far better utility. And this is only using NIN, who has weak personal DPS. MNK, on the other hand, actually out damages SAM in all categories while bringing Mantra.

I also dug a bit deeper. The SAM parsed with his 375 weapon while the NIN still only had her 350 crafted. So all things made equal, she would actually out-dps him.

[Faeon]

No worries!

A NIN provides support outside damage with Smokescreen and Shadewalker.The former can be invaluable due to the frequency of boss aggro resets lately or WHM generating a massive amount of hate. Another factor to consider is if we swap out the SAM for a DRG, what changes? The DRG's DPS will be approximately 5,400-5,600 but the whole raid now benefits from Litany, the NIN will likely get Dragon Sight several times throughout the fight, upping their numbers and the BRD's DPS will jump 500-600 points. You can see this with other parses too; BRDs surpassing 6k. The only way for a SAM to compete is if an AST feeds them cards since they benefit the most from a single target Balance.

When RDM/SMN gets swapped out for MCH, that is another boost DRG offers on top of everything above (And why I think they need to do away with Piercing). Basically, SAMs have to be borderline flawless to achieve comparable numbers to jobs with far better utility. And this is only using NIN, who has weak personal DPS. MNK, on the other hand, actually out damages SAM in all categories while bringing Mantra.

I also dug a bit deeper. The SAM parsed with his 375 weapon while the NIN still only had her 350 crafted. So all things made equal, she would actually out-dps him.

Ya same comment as I made about the utility. This is also where problems come in because the player base as I said are looking at the individual but SE balance around total raid dps.then this becomes a back and forth issue and then certain jobs getting left behind. Currently, some groups are bringing MCH, BRD, NIN, DRG this is a crit based composition. So yea I don't know what SE can do about it tbh! but if they do it will have to be something that upsets the current structures

[Nora_of_Mira]

Who cares though all these meta essays you keep writing throughout this thread are completely irrelevant outside of less then 5% of the community.

The problem is with the rest of the community who thinks they are part of that 5% rather then the jobs themselves

it's not irrelevant because the content that those 5% of the community are doing is how the jobs are balanced and changed. The devs certainly don't balance jobs based on dungeons and story trials, they're balanced on savage/extreme content. and if 95% of the community aren't aware of how the jobs are balanced, maybe this information is actually useful for people looking to get into savage/extreme.

[Kaonis]

It sucks but i'd imagine its very hard to simply "do something" about it, you yourself didn't volunteer any ideas.

I have said it before and I will say it till the end of time, we are not the devs. It is not our job to make the game.

[whiteblade89]

Iirc, this wasn't an issue at the start of 4.0. Samurai had it's outlandish dps way above the others and then the other jobs cried "buff" because they felt too weak in comparison, even with their utility. Doesn't it stand to reason that if the devs buff our personal dps even higher that the same thing will happen again? If samurai is going to be a desired job in savage/extreme then people need to accept the fact that their personal dps needs to be higher than the jobs with utility. That's the nature of the beast with this game, but few people seem willing to accept that.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Iirc, this wasn't an issue at the start of 4.0. Samurai had it's outlandish dps way above the others and then the other jobs cried "buff" because they felt too weak in comparison, even with their utility. Doesn't it stand to reason that if the devs buff our personal dps even higher that the same thing will happen again? If samurai is going to be a desired job in savage/extreme then people need to accept the fact that their personal dps needs to be higher than the jobs with utility. That's the nature of the beast with this game, but few people seem willing to accept that.

Actually, this stemmed from people who have no idea what they're talking about seeing huge potencies and crying over it. Unfortunately, the devs listened to them and not the players who scrutinize those details. So hopefully they don't make that mistake again, because, yes, people need to accept Samurai having insane personal DPS to make up for its lack of utility.

[AiharaMizuki]

snip

It wasn't an issue at the start of 4.0 but samurais got overtaken by dragoon and ninja for Deltascape due to the raid DPS they provide. Samurai's "outlandish dps" isn't enough to compensate. Even at the end of Deltascape they were outdps'd by monks and this was prior to the Monk buffs. Samurai just gets outscaled by Monk, even moreso now that monk was buffed.