Growing tired of this Stigma

[NephthysVasudan]

Please don't bring up manshift when speaking about BLM, the only time it's not a dps loss for us is if we use it during Umbral Ice and normally whoever needs the mana can't wait for us to finish our Astral Fire rotation. You also can't consider this "BLM utility" when both SMN and RDM have this too when it's a Role Ability.

You obviously don't know how to read if that's what you think.
White Mages certainly appreciate manashifting when they run low on Mana when burning cool-downs.
You obviously didn't think about this.

Oh and what's next? That white mage sucks because I had to manashift? Yeah.....cute excuse. It's called teamwork....help the party out.
Everything in this game is not savage related either.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Samurai has usefull utility which is slashing debuff that benefits tanks excluding warrior , what form of utility does BLM have ?

Actually, they don't. Forcing a SAM to apply Slashing means they have to gimp their opener, thus losing a fairly large portion of their damage. Considering the whole point of their existence is supposedly high DPS... it's almost hilarious how dumb Slashing is for SAM. It's very apparent the devs didn't think things through whatsoever there, especially when you compare it to NIN/WAR who can get Slashing up two GCDs in while performing their respective openers.

It's amazing how many people don't understand META. and what it actually means. (Most Effective Tactic Available)

So if a actual META exists:-
there are 2 tank slots in a raid group. and 3 tanks. so there will always be 1 non meta tank.
there are 2 heal slots in a raid group and 3 healers so there will always be 1 non meta healer
there are 4 dps slots in a raid group and 9 dps job so there will always be 5 non meta dps jobs.

it is basically impossible for every job to be in the META.

on the other hand:-
if all the tanks are equally viable and it doesn't matter which 2 you take or
if all the healers are equally viable and it doesn't matter which 2 you take.
and even if only 6 of the 9 dps are equally viable and it doesn't matter which 4 of those 6 you take.

then you don't have a META because you have 15-20 maybe more possilbe party compositions that are equally as effective as each other. none of those is more effective than the rest. even if the other 3 dps are busted it doesn't make a META.

are some jobs weaker than they should be yes they are? but not because they don't fit into a META. basically 50% of the jobs will never fit anyway

The issue with meta favoritism isn't necessarily having the absolute best jobs, but the fact certain jobs are noticeably superior. Accounting for raid DPS, an equally skilled Dragoon will provide more than a Samurai. Battle Litany, Disembowel and Dragon Sight are simply that powerful. Likewise, Brotherhood and Mantra offer a mixture of damage and support utility while Monks themselves actually deal higher personal DPS. Conversely, Summoner and even Red Mage have little trouble getting into groups. Why? They offer something. All that needs be done is each job has to be competitive. Right now, Samurai simply isn't. When you have no idea who will join your PF, I can't blame people for stacking the deck because you have just as high a chance of a good Samurai as you do a good Dragoon.

Samurai is OK. It is the community who is wrong. They should forget the fucking meta shit and play the game. I've find a lot of samurais in EU datacenter and they can join parties in most cases. It seems the exclusion is more common in NA data center for any reason.

Please do not say this because, no, it isn't. The supposed selfish DPS job is getting outdamaged by Monk. That means it isn't fulfilling the niche it's designed for. You can absolutely dislike people locking out specific jobs but all advocating its okay does leave the job to wither. And like it or not, people will continue to ignore Samurai until it gets a much deserved buff.

[HyoMinPark]

Samurai is OK. It is the community who is wrong. They should forget the fucking meta shit and play the game. I've find a lot of samurais in EU datacenter and they can join parties in most cases. It seems the exclusion is more common in NA data center for any reason.

Except SAM is not okay. It's being outDPS'd by MNK, which brings party utility in the forms of Mantra and Brotherhood. SAM is supposed to be the selfish DPS that spits out damage like there's no tomorrow, but put them next to an equally-skilled MNK, and they really don't shine at all. If the devs don't buff SAM's potencies to actually make it a Big Dick DPS job, then it's going to die.

Manashift....with a nearly endless mana supply - only problem is the cool down time. (Yes its a shared spell with casters..but still) - perhaps a buff to that would be useful?
Other than that...not a whole lot.

BLM's to me are glorified artillery cannons....and rather good at that job. They drop anchor...and nuke the target...so to speak. I'm reluctant to change that...as it makes them unique in that regard.

Except SMN/RDM also have Mana Shift, and BLM is the least optimal to use that skill on--it hurts their rotation more than it would hurt the rotation of a SMN or RDM. Yeah, they may have it, but the other casters do it better. And Refresh blows Mana Shift out of the water, so if you have healers desperately in need of MP, you would ask for a BRD/MCH instead.

Everything in this game is not savage related either.

Except the META that everyone loves to complain about is only truly needed for Savage/Ultimate (and even then, it isn't NEEDED). Exclusions of non-meta jobs don't happen for Expert Roulette. People don't care to optimize in dungeons. Or even Extreme trials. Where most of the purported exclusions against SAM and BLM happen is for static recruitments or for weekly Savage parties.

but blm have way higher dps and even more utility (mana shift, addle)

Role Skills can't really be counted as a unique utility. BLM already has difficulty weaving in oGCDs, so the other casters do Mana Shift and Adele better because they lose nothing for weaving. Plus, RDM has Embolden (however weak it is), and SMN has Devotion. And both can Raise fallen members. Instantly have better utility than BLM.

For the melee--
NIN: Trick Attack, Shadewalker, Smokescreen
DRG: Battle Litany, Disembowel to instantly give BRD/MCH minimum 250 more DPS overall, Dragon Sight for a 5% buff to whoever the DRG tethers
MNK: Brotherhood, Mantra
SAM: nothing

Neither BLM or SAM have unique utility to their jobs.

BLM is in a better spot than before, but the best BLM parse for O6S (last I heard) is only 200 DPS above the best SMN parse....and the BLM had 13 Balances to the SMN's 7~8.

[itti18]

but blm have way higher dps and even more utility (mana shift, addle)

sorry but I still dont see how BLM has more utility than SAM (addle , manashift ) SAM has the exact same things in the form of (goad and feint) plus the slashing debuff which is what I would call more utility

[MoroMurasaki]

I'd tell I'm to take their parser and shove it where the sun don't shine.....and then report them for violation of ToS.

Really off topic but... huh? Report someone for a potentially bannable offense because they exclude your preferred job? Just had to call this out cause I noticed it - no. Reporting someone for parsing because they don't want a certain group composition is essentially filing a false report because you have no proof at all.

Don't do it, kids. Dumb idea.

On the topic of selfish DPS being excluded from parties I know a BLM main on Zalera who is completely amazing. Like I've rarely run anything with him that's gotten parsed where he wasn't first in DPS by a good margin. He makes tanks that know him adjust their playstyle to include extra enmity combos because he's just that good.

He also has awful PF luck when he's setting them up specifically and I've seen him lament in FC chat about having a PF open for an hour with no one joining. The joke is on the people that scrolled by because he's legitimately an amazing BLM and will definitely make up for his lack of utility but even with his many shiny orange parses he has trouble finding groups.

I'd wager if you aren't the top tier at a selfish DPS job it must become even harder because when your only function is killing the thing and someone else can kill it faster or buff the group... no offense but why should those parties take you over a DRG to buff their crit and ranged dps or a NIN with their enmity manip and vuln up debuff?

I will say I spend a fair but of extra time healing that BLM when I party with him, in part because he'll rip hate and in part because he doesn't dodge. Maybe that's what it takes to be a really good selfish dps? I'd wager that's even worse in melee range, even more attacks to dodge generally, but maybe that's what top tier sams are doing? I wouldn't know, I've never seen one.

[Derio]

They did say in 4.3 that there were going to be job adjustments. And SAM was mentioned. However it may be possible we may see a few adjustments in 4.25 but I doubt it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

sorry but I still dont see how BLM has more utility than SAM (addle , manashift ) SAM has the exact same things in the form of (goad and feint) plus the slashing debuff which is what I would call more utility

Black Mage has better utility.

- TP issues are almost null and void nowadays. If you happen to die twice and miss Tactician from BRD/MCH, well, it's probably better to wipe anyway.
- The vast majority of fights deal high magic damage, thus Feint is worthless
- Scholar and especially Astro will inevitably bottom out on MP if they're highly aggressive with DPS, making manashift is far more useful.
- I already said why Slashing on Samurai is dumb.

[itti18]

Black Mage has better utility.

- TP issues are almost null and void nowadays. If you happen to die twice and miss Tactician from BRD/MCH, well, it's probably better to wipe anyway.
- The vast majority of fights deal high magic damage, thus Feint is worthless
- Scholar and especially Astro will inevitably bottom out on MP if they're highly aggressive with DPS, making manashift is far more useful.
- I already said why Slashing on Samurai is dumb.

but thats your opinion about the utility SAM has , in the end SAM has (slashing debuff , feint , goad ) BLM has (manashift , addle)

in my opinion slashing debuff is really useful and allows for different comps without relying on warrior or ninja

[MoroMurasaki]

but thats your opinion about the utility SAM has , in the end SAM has (slashing debuff , feint , goad ) BLM has (manashift , addle)

in my opinion slashing debuff is really useful and allows for different comps without relying on warrior or ninja

But NIN has enmity manip and vuln up - there is literally no reason to not take a NIN if we are coming from the stance of utility being universally useful.

That said not all utility is creared the same, particularly goad and manashift. Goad is useless in a ST fight unless someone dies. Manashift is so useful it should be getting thrown at healers constantly. How can you make the argument that these things are equals?

You could say the sky being blue is an opinion but it doesn't make you any less wrong if you call it green instead.

[HyoMinPark]

but thats your opinion about the utility SAM has , in the end SAM has (slashing debuff , feint , goad ) BLM has (manashift , addle)

in my opinion slashing debuff is really useful and allows for different comps without relying on warrior or ninja

By that logic,

NIN has slashing debuff, Feint, and Goad. It also has Trick Attack, Shadewalker, and Smokescreen. Instantly a better choice over SAM, because TA will give the entire party more than enough DPS to make up for not taking a SAM. Used properly, Shade/Smoke will ensure the MT never has to touch their tank stance, boosting their damage by at least 20%, since they won’t have the stance penalty. NIN does it better.

DRG and MNK have Feint and Goad...DRG brings Battle Litany, Dragon Sight, and Disembowel for an instant ~+250 DPS for the BRD/MCH in the group. MNK brings Brotherhood and Mantra, the latter of which is good to have for prog to ease the stress of healing new encounters, or when your group is lacking better gear. DRG and MNK do it better.

WAR has slashing debuff...while also having massive amounts of personal damage, loses nothing by being the MT, thereby allowing PLDs and DRKs to OT, and offers party utility in the form of Shake It Off. WAR does slashing better than SAM.

RDM/SMN have access to Addle and Mana Shift, and they do it better than BLM, because BLM already has issues with weaving in oGCDs due to their long cast times taking up the entirety of their GCD—any oGCD weaving results in GCD clipping—and Mana Shift can only be used while in Umbral Ice, which will delay their Astral Fire, which will hurt their DPS. RDM/SMN do it better.
This isn’t even considering that both RDM and SMN bring raid buffs to the group, however weak they may be, and SMN’s damage + their utility alone is usually enough to take them over a BLM...because they will benefit the party more. The entire reason the META exists is because of its optimal synergy and group benefit. Unless BLM and SAM can offer a crapton of DPS to offset the sacrifice of a META job, they won’t have any competition for those groups that want the META.


SAM and BLM have nothing to offer that other jobs don’t already offer AND do better. Their niche is supposed to be massive amounts of damage to offset their absolute lack of unique utility, but SAM is being outDPS’d by MNKs, and the best BLM parse was only 200 DPS above the best SMN parse, AND THE BLM HAD 13 BALANCES.