Growing tired of this Stigma

[Dzian]

It's amazing how many people don't understand META. and what it actually means. (Most Effective Tactic Available)

So if a actual META exists:-
there are 2 tank slots in a raid group. and 3 tanks. so there will always be 1 non meta tank.
there are 2 heal slots in a raid group and 3 healers so there will always be 1 non meta healer
there are 4 dps slots in a raid group and 9 dps job so there will always be 5 non meta dps jobs.

it is basically impossible for every job to be in the META.

on the other hand:-
if all the tanks are equally viable and it doesn't matter which 2 you take or
if all the healers are equally viable and it doesn't matter which 2 you take.
and even if only 6 of the 9 dps are equally viable and it doesn't matter which 4 of those 6 you take.

then you don't have a META because you have 15-20 maybe more possilbe party compositions that are equally as effective as each other. none of those is more effective than the rest. even if the other 3 dps are busted it doesn't make a META.

are some jobs weaker than they should be yes they are? but not because they don't fit into a META. basically 50% of the jobs will never fit anyway

[AxlStream]

So nobody is saying the real reason now? Guess I'll have to do it.

In a public setting most Samurai mains are a weeb stick wielding hindrance. Sure SAM CAN deal insane amounts of damage but how many actual SAM players can tap into it? Not many, and those that can are picked up by statics and don't need to go into PF. Which leaves us with the wannabe DPS player that thinks he's hot (cuz SAM) and will die over and over and over to optimize uptime while being caught up by a WAR or PLD that know what they're doing. SAM just attracted this type of bad player and the whole class suffers for it.

If you talk about utility out of a group that wants to get Savage down, you are a fool. Most PF players forget their utility even exists, let alone know when to use it and others, when to expect it to cash in on it. I seen NIN use TA when nobody had burst, RDM wasting Embolden and other atrocities. Sadly those aren't an exception but the norm. The only thing that happens somewhat reliably, is the tank getting Shadewalker on pull. Rest of the fight, you never see it.

tl;dr : Average players are bad and makes a class hard to perform on look bad.

[Joe777]

So nobody is saying the real reason now? Guess I'll have to do it.

In a public setting most Samurai mains are a weeb stick wielding hindrance. Sure SAM CAN deal insane amounts of damage but how many actual SAM players can tap into it? Not many, and those that can are picked up by statics and don't need to go into PF. Which leaves us with the wannabe DPS player that thinks he's hot (cuz SAM) and will die over and over and over to optimize uptime while being caught up by a WAR or PLD that know what they're doing. SAM just attracted this type of bad player and the whole class suffers for it.

If you talk about utility out of a group that wants to get Savage down, you are a fool. Most PF players forget their utility even exists, let alone know when to use it and others, when to expect it to cash in on it. I seen NIN use TA when nobody had burst, RDM wasting Embolden and other atrocities. Sadly those aren't an exception but the norm. The only thing that happens somewhat reliably, is the tank getting Shadewalker on pull. Rest of the fight, you never see it.

tl;dr : Average players are bad and makes a class hard to perform on look bad.

That's not a real reason, let alone the real reason because that can apply to any job, even the ones the meta find mandatory.

[Felis]

there are 2 heal slots in a raid group and 3 healers so there will always be 1 non meta healer

Which one need a healing buff?

[Cabalabob]

Fact is there are only 8 party slots for endgame content and 15 jobs. Assuming no double stacking jobs that leaves 7 jobs that won’t be meta, almost enough jobs to form a non-meta party...

In a game as linear as this in both content and job progression it is inevitable that only 8 jobs will take the top spots. The only way all jobs will be optimal would be for them to be the same job with different skins.

In my opinion the game needs more variety in content, they need to design fights around different party compositions so it doesn’t always just come down to highest dps. For example design fights like the current content where the boss hits like a wet noodle but needs to die fast or it will enrage, favouring your wars, whms, sams and mnks and have it drop gear for those jobs. Then also have another fight of the same difficulty level that hits hard but has very little hp, favouring high mitigation and utility jobs like your plds, schs, brds.

That way there will be content catered to every jobs strengths rather than one content that your job can do but will just be a hindrance on the group over another job.

[Xlantaa]

Samurai is OK. It is the community who is wrong. They should forget the fucking meta shit and play the game. I've find a lot of samurais in EU datacenter and they can join parties in most cases. It seems the exclusion is more common in NA data center for any reason.

[ServerCollaps]

Samurai is OK. It is the community who is wrong. They should forget the fucking meta shit and play the game. I've find a lot of samurais in EU datacenter and they can join parties in most cases. It seems the exclusion is more common in NA data center for any reason.

they can join, but they still decrease the odds of killing something (less raid wide dps, more mechanics to deal with, probably enrage and what not).

[NephthysVasudan]

Samurai is OK. It is the community who is wrong. They should forget the fucking meta shit and play the game. I've find a lot of samurais in EU datacenter and they can join parties in most cases. It seems the exclusion is more common in NA data center for any reason.

*applauds*

Well said!

[akaneakki]

Samurai is OK. It is the community who is wrong. They should forget the fucking meta shit and play the game. I've find a lot of samurais in EU datacenter and they can join parties in most cases. It seems the exclusion is more common in NA data center for any reason.

You sure? Last 10 groups I was in on gilgamesh (well that same data center) 8 out of 10 groups had sams.

they can join, but they still decrease the odds of killing something (less raid wide dps, more mechanics to deal with, probably enrage and what not).

Just because a group has a meta setup, doesn't mean they can excute it well. Ninjas doing trick attack long after its up, DRG's using sight on wrong player, MCH not doing a lot of damage every min etc etc.
I've had groups with sam and mnk killing stuff faster than meta groups. People tend to forget for a meta group to work they need to be good players. I've been in so many primal/savage groups with meta setup and where ninja doesnt excute trick attack when it's up etc.

[HyoMinPark]

Samurai is OK. It is the community who is wrong. They should forget the fucking meta shit and play the game. I've find a lot of samurais in EU datacenter and they can join parties in most cases. It seems the exclusion is more common in NA data center for any reason.

Except SAM is not okay. It's being outDPS'd by MNK, which brings party utility in the forms of Mantra and Brotherhood. SAM is supposed to be the selfish DPS that spits out damage like there's no tomorrow, but put them next to an equally-skilled MNK, and they really don't shine at all. If the devs don't buff SAM's potencies to actually make it a Big Dick DPS job, then it's going to die.

Manashift....with a nearly endless mana supply - only problem is the cool down time. (Yes its a shared spell with casters..but still) - perhaps a buff to that would be useful?
Other than that...not a whole lot.

BLM's to me are glorified artillery cannons....and rather good at that job. They drop anchor...and nuke the target...so to speak. I'm reluctant to change that...as it makes them unique in that regard.

Except SMN/RDM also have Mana Shift, and BLM is the least optimal to use that skill on--it hurts their rotation more than it would hurt the rotation of a SMN or RDM. Yeah, they may have it, but the other casters do it better. And Refresh blows Mana Shift out of the water, so if you have healers desperately in need of MP, you would ask for a BRD/MCH instead.

Everything in this game is not savage related either.

Except the META that everyone loves to complain about is only truly needed for Savage/Ultimate (and even then, it isn't NEEDED). Exclusions of non-meta jobs don't happen for Expert Roulette. People don't care to optimize in dungeons. Or even Extreme trials. Where most of the purported exclusions against SAM and BLM happen is for static recruitments or for weekly Savage parties.

but blm have way higher dps and even more utility (mana shift, addle)

Role Skills can't really be counted as a unique utility. BLM already has difficulty weaving in oGCDs, so the other casters do Mana Shift and Adele better because they lose nothing for weaving. Plus, RDM has Embolden (however weak it is), and SMN has Devotion. And both can Raise fallen members. Instantly have better utility than BLM.

For the melee--
NIN: Trick Attack, Shadewalker, Smokescreen
DRG: Battle Litany, Disembowel to instantly give BRD/MCH minimum 250 more DPS overall, Dragon Sight for a 5% buff to whoever the DRG tethers
MNK: Brotherhood, Mantra
SAM: nothing

Neither BLM or SAM have unique utility to their jobs.

BLM is in a better spot than before, but the best BLM parse for O6S (last I heard) is only 200 DPS above the best SMN parse....and the BLM had 13 Balances to the SMN's 7~8.