[Spoilers] Is Hydaelyn a primal?

[Kukajoo]

/charlimit

You gotta remember though, were adventurers, hands for sale, pretty much mercenaries. People hire us, point at something to take care of and we take care of it. There was a huge thing about us and our free will, how we don't seem to take action until told though that whole deal was dropped unceremoniously and never reached proper conclusion. We just kill whatever the people currently in authority point to. Were not running around changing things of our own volition but because someone said that thing needs to change, oh hey you WOL you're strong go change that. We do help out on the side though as the many many sidequests indicate. The wol 100% helps the common man.

[kikix12]

If the Warrior of Light not only begun the change, but also lead it, the result would be a world that would fall apart with the players death or disappearance for any reason. And all these places have their own "leaders". It's not like they WANT the Warrior of Light to lead them. They just wanted that push to make the change. Even in Ishgard that holds true.

The world where the Warriors of Darkness overwhelmed the their opposition was FILLED with light, not drained of it. Hydaelyn creates aether, but she cannot stop it from spreading. That's what Zodiark is meant to do. However, Zodiark is not satisfied with the status quo, so his servants lead to drain Hydaelyns blessings and need to be fought.

As for why Garleans have no magic ability...you either didn't reach that point, or you forgot that the leader seems to know a lot about the Ascians and discusses things with them, just like the Archbishop from Ishgard. It may have been the case of Ascians leading Garlean on this path in order to destabilize the world. Take from a small region the blessing of magic and force its people to find another "tool" (the magitek, which the Ascians could very well know about), and both that discovery and the jealousy would naturally lead to war for supremacy. Just what Ascians wanted. It could have spanned for thousands of years. Remember that Ascians are immortal, and that all of the Umbral Eras were caused by them.

Also, didn't Hydaelyn create the worlds in the first place?! If yes, then how could she be made if Primals are 'beliefs of creatures manifested by aether'?! There were no creatures to make her manifest before the worlds were made.


I'm not saying that she doesn't have some connection to primals, but it is more likely that she is the "predecessor" for them. That based on her, people begun trying to make their own gods, the Primals.

[Gr1mwolf]

The primals aren't inherently destructive (outside the siphoning of aether). Ramuh was only interested in protecting the Sylphs, Lakshmi just wanted to temper everyone into servitude, etc. They do whatever the people summoning them want them to do. Which more often than not, tends to be violence.
I think Lahabrea said something hinting that Hydaelyn was a primal in the last duty of ARR, though the dumbass immediately after said that Zodiark was cool and not at all a primal, because reasons.

[Fjaere]

I have a feeling this might be a possible plot twist in the game. Imagine having to free, then put down the tempered Minfilia from the evil clutches of Hydaelyn. Meanwhile it turns out the Ascians and Zodiark were the good guys trying to stop this incredibly powerful primal from destroying yet another world.

[ObsidianFire]

This should be taken to the lore forum given the topic.

No. Hydaelyn is not a primal. She (and Zodiark) pre-date the world (and life) as we know it. She is the source of aether which makes up all life (including the aether the primals are made out of). The only time Warriors of Light come into being is when Zodiark's minions (that Ascians) are about to bring about a Rejoining (Umbral Calamity) and Hydaelyn needs someone to try and stop them (Hydaelyn hasn't yet succeeded at this until the 7th Umbral Calamity). Other then that, Hydaelyn seems to keep a hands-off approach to the word.

It should be mentioned that the Rejoining will end life as we know it on the shards, and Hydaelyn doesn't want that to happen since all life is precious to her. Since she doesn't like messing with free will, the main option that she seems to take is to give people who are already taking initiative in stopping the Rejoining some of her power so that they can go toe to toe with the Ascians who are similarly empowered by Zodiark.

Primals start as ideas people have that they believe in enough to make real. And the Ascians have been involved with each Primal creation/summoning to date. Given that the Ascians are trying to destroy Hydaelyn's creations (the shards) it would make no sense that she is a primal.

Also, primal tempering gives nothing like the Echo. It always limits what people do instead of expanding on what they can do. The Echo is also a prerequisite for becoming an Ascian so if everyone with the Echo is really is tempered by Hydaelyn, then the Ascians had better be tempered by Zodiark and that's not what we see.

[Shouko]

To quote a reddit post about this..

"Everything we've seen in the game so far supports the idea that Hydaelyn is the spirit of the planet herself. If she were a Primal, she wouldn't be gradually weakening throughout ARR content; she'd have all the aether there is to empower her, and the land would be noticeably getting sucked dry everywhere. On top of that, even Midgardsormr has known and seemingly respected Hydaelyn since . He holds no similar respect for Primals, whom he and his Brood blame the Ascians for. And on top of that, no Primal has displayed the ability to confer things as complex and different as the Echo or the Blessing of Light; all we've really seen from them is generic "really strong" plus "the ability to perma-mind-control people".

[Enkidoh]

ObsidianFire is correct - not only should this be in the Lore Forum, this very topic has in fact been discussed there in the past and the conclusion reached was, no, Hydaelyn is most definitely not a Primal. Hydaelyn is the planet's consciousness, a literal goddess. Why She takes the form of a giant, sentient crystal though is hard to say, although these tropes may definitely be at play here.

Primals on the other hand, are ideas made physical through enormous quantities of aether (usually in the form of consuming crystals) and a powerful enough will (which the Ascians help manipulate people into the perfect situations for creating them).

Because a Primal exists only if the will giving it flesh is strong enough, hence it requires prayer and devotion, and this is why they temper - it creates a feedback loop where in more followers means more aether and prayer fed to them and the conclusion is the Primal only becomes stronger. Yes some Primals on the surface do not seem malign like Ramuh, but they are still extremely dangerous and must be destroyed.

This also leads the situation where the intelligence and mental power of the one summoning the Primal influences that Primal's own personality and intelligence - this was shown when Titan was inadvertently summoned by a koboldling who was grieving for his killed parents, the resulting Titan was more bestial than he normally was, and was simply a mindless monster channeling the kobold child's grief and heartache. This makes sense, a Primal is a thoughtform and so it's natural then that the being created from that will reflects that.

The Echo is a complex topic, but it's not the same as tempering, where as tempering strips a person's free will, the Echo actually increases the user's own will, it allows them to break down the '"barriers of the soul", allowing them extraordinary abilities such as viewing another's memories as if they had lived them, having mastery of any language without having learned it naturally, and, it's eventual extreme, becoming an incorporeal being like the Ascians. Hydaelyn randomly grants the Echo to mortals, but leaves it completely up to them as to how they make use of it. She doesn't sit there pulling us on a chain, She gives us the Echo, hints that bad things are happening and please can you stop them, but then leaves us on our own.

This is why She awakens so many to the Echo, it is because of our free will not in spite of it, She hopes that at least someone will be altruistic and noble enough to take up Her fight and stop Zodiark and His agents, so She does a mass 'mail-out' of the Echo, hoping one at least will hit the mark. Which She succeeds of course, with the player's character, another mere adventurer who just happens to keep finding themself in the right place at the right time and ends up becoming Hydaelyn's Champion almost by accident.

Also on the note of Hydaelyn's divinity, Michael Christopher Koji-Fox has also confirmed that the Twelve do also exist as literal gods and goddess, but their actual form may not be what you may at first expect, although sadly he has not clarified exactly what that means.

[alimdia]

Also on the note of Hydaelyn's divinity, Michael Christopher Koji-Fox has also confirmed that the Twelve do also exist as literal gods and goddess, but their actual form may not be what you may at first expect, although sadly he has not clarified exactly what that means.

Source on this? So far everything has been pointing to the twelve being nothing but western myth, so I'm really curious now.

[Enkidoh]

Source on this? So far everything has been pointing to the twelve being nothing but western myth, so I'm really curious now.

Well, the source for my statement was a very old post by Ferne on the now archived 1.0 forum (from way back in 2012 in fact!), but looking back at it again, Ferne's statement was rather ambiguous about it, so as usual, I kind took it in a different way (Ferne stated that the exact status of the Twelve is "deliberately vague", so I kind of interpreted that as "They exist, but maybe not necessarily how you think they are").

Either way, this is relevant section from the post in question:

4. Do the Twelve exist? Are the Archons from the Circle of Knowing actually the Twelve? Are the primals and the Twelve one in the same (er, twelve in the same)?

More info on the gods of Eorzea and how both the Twelve and the primal fit into the whole celestial scheme of things will be revealed in ARR, but even then things will remain hazy. I mean, it’s religion. It’s hazy by design. In one age, a guy who single-handedly kills a microchu to save a girl is a good Samaritan. The story gets told by a thousand different people, each time changing just a little, but each time becoming more epic (the microchu becomes an ochu, the ochu becomes ten ochus, the girl becomes a princess, and so-on). In the next age, he’s a hero. In the next, he’s a saint. In the next, he’s a god, smiting ochus with levinbolts from high atop a snowy peak. And what of those people who possess magic or technology that is beyond the comprehension of the commonfolk? Would they not appear as gods? And what about those powerful entities who fancy themselves as gods, and use people gullible enough to follow them to obtain what they desire (power, gold, etc.)? And what of the actual gods, who normally don’t give a hoot about the ants crawling about their realms, but will intervene when it amuses them? Hopefully the story in ARR will help categorize who falls into what slot.

I can mention why primals are referred to as primals, though. It is not because they are underdeveloped, younger deities, but because the beast tribes tend to believe that they were the ones who created them, the world, and everything. They are the primal forms of existence.

So yeah, my memory is hazy and I kind of jumped the gun by mis-interpreting that without first verifying it (which I have a habit of doing). Sorry about that.

[Malkria]

This should be taken to the lore forum given the topic.

No. Hydaelyn is not a primal. She (and Zodiark) pre-date the world (and life) as we know it. She is the source of aether which makes up all life (including the aether the primals are made out of). The only time Warriors of Light come into being is when Zodiark's minions (that Ascians) are about to bring about a Rejoining (Umbral Calamity) and Hydaelyn needs someone to try and stop them (Hydaelyn hasn't yet succeeded at this until the 7th Umbral Calamity). Other then that, Hydaelyn seems to keep a hands-off approach to the word.

It should be mentioned that the Rejoining will end life as we know it on the shards, and Hydaelyn doesn't want that to happen since all life is precious to her. Since she doesn't like messing with free will, the main option that she seems to take is to give people who are already taking initiative in stopping the Rejoining some of her power so that they can go toe to toe with the Ascians who are similarly empowered by Zodiark.

Primals start as ideas people have that they believe in enough to make real. And the Ascians have been involved with each Primal creation/summoning to date. Given that the Ascians are trying to destroy Hydaelyn's creations (the shards) it would make no sense that she is a primal.

Also, primal tempering gives nothing like the Echo. It always limits what people do instead of expanding on what they can do. The Echo is also a prerequisite for becoming an Ascian so if everyone with the Echo is really is tempered by Hydaelyn, then the Ascians had better be tempered by Zodiark and that's not what we see.

The problem in your logic is present in the phrasing you use. "She pre-dates the world (and life) as we know it" may be true, but you also point out that the calamity would wipe out life as we know it. So could it not also be possible that she and her opposite are in fact left over from a previous cycle? As for the Acians trying to stop her, that doesn't exclude her as a primal any more then simply being in opposition to their goals.

As for the tempering, we have only seen it used by newly summoned primals and those not bound to a human to boot. Shiva and the knights when summoned and bound within morals apparently either didn't have the capability to temper, or were able to suppress it all together. But I would lean in the latter then the former, as otherwise it changes how primals operate all together but we are told it still is a primal as we know it to be in game. To treat them otherwise would break down all rhyme and reason to how primals operate...and frankly I feel the logic is fast and loose enough as it is. However, the point is that if tempering can be throttled, there is no reason to believe that one can be left with little more then compulsion rather then a complete sacrifice of will. Keep in mind that every time our character has a chance to make a dialogue 'choice' that we never have the option to deviate from the stereotypical hero archetype. In fact, this lack of deviation and lack of free choice could in itself be indicative of our being tempered.

Yes some Primals on the surface do not seem malign like Ramuh, but they are still extremely dangerous and must be destroyed.

The only problem with that example was that even the Scions were willing to let him continue to exist peacefully. We only ended up fighting him because he was wanting to test our mettle and was willing to leave if we could protect the forest if I recall (it was a long time ago in the storyline). But his presence does prove good natured primals exist, and in Stormblood we also have a primal summon themselves with no prayer OR crystal present (at least I don't recall crystal playing a part for Susano's summoning). So Hydaelyn could still potentially be a primal.