Samurai Buff Speculation

[ShaolinMike]

Higanbana, I would agree, probably does need an increase to the amount of damage it ticks for. If you add up the potency over time of it compared to Shadow Fang, Demolish, and Chaos Thrust, the damage is in line with other jobs. The only benefit is the Samurai doesn't have to reapply it as often.

The fact that it is in line with other jobs is terrible, considering that the idea behind SAM is that it's supposed to be the highest personal DPS job.

[Dzian]

The fact that it is in line with other jobs is terrible, considering that the idea behind SAM is that it's supposed to be the highest personal DPS job.

Hiragana is not that bad really.

Inial hit is 240 potency. Plus 20 ticks at 35 potency. For a total of 940 potency from basically a single gcd.
If you use kaiten that's a total of 1410 potency still from basically a single gcd.

Compare to like shadow gang. Wherein The same 60 seconds you need 3 of them. That's 600 potency plus the for. 800 potency. Your looking at 1400 potency from 3 gcd.

The damage is adds up to be similar sure but 1410 potency from a single gcd is quite a significant amount of damage.
In that respect it's almost 3x more powerful than shadow gang.

[Mahrze]

...

autocorrect did as fantastic job on this xD

[Shiroe]

Logically I'd say SAM should be ahead of BLM.

Casters typically have the relative safety of range. Which is why there usually less powerful than brute force melee jobs.

by that logic, blm, the least mobile dps class, should have the highest dps

Sam has been top or near top for the last 2 patches, ... it will eventually be top again.., should tie with blm (sam still can get more party buffs in general)... but see even today some pfs still not wanting a blm, due to that blm die often (out of healing range, lower HP, slower to master in new fights ect.., besides zero utility of its own.., atleast if a nin or war is missing, sam can slash debuff)

[aozoranoyume]

by that logic, blm, the least mobile dps class, should have the highest dps

Sam has been top or near top for the last 2 patches, ... it will eventually be top again.., should tie with blm (sam still can get more party buffs in general)... but see even today some pfs still not wanting a blm, due to that blm die often (out of healing range, lower HP, slower to master in new fights ect.., besides zero utility of its own.., atleast if a nin or war is missing, sam can slash debuff)

SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

[Shurrikhan]

What do you think it has been and is right now? Got our NIN? Okay. Got our DRG? Okay, then we're allowed to raid. BLM & MNK can't fall out of meta if they were never in it in the first place. As long as Square continues to think selfish DPS are just as efficient as rDPS contributions, the meta will remain permanent as it has since 3.0. Potency buffs have done literally nothing for BLM to gain favor in the raid scene so why would it work for SAM?

Then it should be massively obvious that making adding an even greater imbalance to that checklist does not solve the damn checklist. It's like you're acting in retaliation rather than trying to fix anything. Well NIN has a lead on rDPS in perfect comps, so let me have 400% his lead in an even more gimmicky manner -- and with no required skill, to boot -- so that parties are almost explicitly required to have me. Problem... solved?

"Selfish" damage-dealing IS as rDPS efficient as indirect contributors so long as they produce the same rDPS. It doesn't matter -- at all -- where that rDPS comes from. If a SAM would bring even just 1.5 to 1.8% of the NIN party's raid DPS more in personal damage than that NIN, he is an rDPS increase.

Reasonable external changes to a given class would include things like Brotherhood affecting ALL damage, or the previous buffs to Dragon Sight or the change to Foe Requiem and Hypercharge to affect all damage rather than (either just physical or) just magical, each allowing for greater versatility and reducing compositional niching. They do not include stripping other classes of their core skills in order to force them to take another to even have (what used to be) a full rotation. They do not include a 50% more powerful skill that is balanced around the assumption of use (due to having 3 identical appliers), which can affect up to 50% of the raid each a relatively huge portion of their damage each.

NIN remains very nearly balanced reasonable because of how little its personal damage contributes; it's no laughable amount, and certainly right up there, but the difference in having or not having Trick Attack contributes similarly small numbers. Even assuming the best possible use of Trick Attack for the given NIN's comp, its rDPS typically carries only a very small lead.
The best possible Samurai, on the other hand, generally falls behind not just the best possible BLM, but also often the best possible SMN or MNK, both of whom provide some additional 2 to 4% of their value as rDPS not included in their individual parses. That's your problem, and it doesn't mean that Samurai needs raid support; it just means it needs more rDPS, in any given way.

It's not that raid (de)buffs are inherently strong. They're only as good as the damage dealt during its windows. It's just that SAM is undertuned, just as RDM is slightly undertuned. That's it. Any inherent fault in "selfish" dps is owed only to their mention in regurgitated secondhand information. The resultant fault, however, does actually exist, but is small.

SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

You're again badly overestimating indirect damage. You've given almost a 12% advantage to the latter through vacation time. The reality of it would be barely a week with the best possible comp and timings (Trick Attack; nominally 1.6% rDPS, closer to 1.9% in actuality). Only DRG in a double-ranged party would make your analogy sensible. And the only benefits any remotely meta job past clears have outside of the damage itself are Shadewalker and Mantra, neither of which amount to much (except for add speedburns).

They will be "top" when their DPS (yes, the sum of personal and indirect -- which for SAM would be solely pDPS) is top. No if's and's or but's. Hopefully that will never occur, seeing as there is technically less risk and therefore skill on the part of the party involved in reaching that level of contribution from an independent source than from a dependent one. But hopefully it will one day be far closer.

[Shiroe]

SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

top dps was ment ofc on fflogs, where sam has dropped out a lot compared to previous patches.(even if sam top there didn't fix the meta, atleast sam could shine and still had value)

but true, the problem is also having mnk buffed too much... , sam needs a buff AND mnk need a slight nerf (like smn got a slight nerf, in that direction), mnk is just too strong for its utility atm

and btw, top fflogs top player damage dps class will never be fully part of the meta / speedkill..., it would make the class too desired

[aozoranoyume]

"Selfish" damage-dealing IS as rDPS efficient as indirect contributors so long as they produce the same rDPS. It doesn't matter -- at all -- where that rDPS comes from.

I'm not arguing that pDPS can't equate to the overall contribution that rDPS can; it can and does, but you're speaking as if FFLogs and ACT don't exist. My point, exaggerated or not, was that even low-tier players who can barely perform a rotation of any coherence are locking out SAM & BLM from PF due to the meta mindset.

The vast majority of players are convinced they need a NIN & DRG to clear content efficiently. Most people know any job is capable contributing to overall DPS (even if it comes through pDPS), but they want to see their own numbers go up. If TA & BL are what helps them achieve orange on FFLogs so they can feel better about themselves and have an easier time applying to statics, then of course they're going to want only that in their parties.

[Shiroe]

agree! ... many want nin and drg just to buff their own dps (so their fflogs looks better), that's also a main problem..

and why some wont take blm or/and sam in the comps .... or max only one of the two... (forced to go smn in kill/ farm pfs)..

well, every sam should learn mnk too, even if they don't master it fully... (just like every blm should learn smn or rdm too), ..its a reality -.-'

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not arguing that pDPS can't equate to the overall contribution that rDPS can; it can and does, but you're speaking as if FFLogs and ACT don't exist. My point, exaggerated or not, was that even low-tier players who can barely perform a rotation of any coherence are locking out SAM & BLM from PF due to the meta mindset.

The vast majority of players are convinced they need a NIN & DRG to clear content efficiently. Most people know any job is capable contributing to overall DPS (even if it comes through pDPS), but they want to see their own numbers go up. If TA & BL are what helps them achieve orange on FFLogs so they can feel better about themselves and have an easier time applying to statics, then of course they're going to want only that in their parties.

The only point you can fix that you're balancing not around actual raid damage and viability therefor, but the ability to pad (ironically enough) personal DPS. That is not something XIV's developers should be required to do. The party's clear speed should be enough; personal DPS percentiles should be irrelevant. If the community remains that backwards at that point that they would, given the chance, sacrifice raid DPS for their own personal logs, so be it, the idea of class choice is essentially irredeemable, because by being dependent on other's bonuses you reduce what's actually expected of you personally and therefore the fflogs cap likely for your class. Can't take the 7k dps Monk because too many people are used to being padded to 5.5k, despite a 1k net loss. Whoopdeedo?

The funny thing is that the solution to that issue is the same thing that would make indirect damage look all the more attractive in itself -- allocating all bonus damage caused to the person who applied the (de)buff, not the persons embonused. It also makes actual contribution all the more obvious, and therefore actual balance all the more obvious... Likewise an official parser would at least heavily discourage those who haven't the skill to even interact with or really understand the benefits of a given meta from taking second-hand statements as common sense without having any of the sense of it themselves and push them towards a position where they better could understand the reality of it. But alas, DPS-mania and rigid guidelines are applied even by those who can't decently dps because parsers aren't DADT, despite FFlogs being a world of the best padded... Contradictions are always fun.